ORAL HISTORY PROJECT OF THE MARIN COUNTY FREE LIBRARY Anne T. Kent California Room Original recording available at the Anne T. Kent California Room © All materials copyright Marin County Free Library. Transcript made available for research purposes only. All rights are reserved to the Marin County Free Library. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the: Anne T. Kent California Room Marin County Free Library 3501 Civic Center Dr. #427 San Rafael, California, 94903

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INTERVIEW WITH IRMA LEONHART LITZ
by Carla Ehat & Anne Kent
January 13, 1976

INTERVIEWEE: Irma Leonhart Litz (IL)
INTERVIEWERS: Carla Ehat (CE), Anne Kent (AK), and Jackie Mollenkoff (JM)
DATE OF INTERVIEW: January 13, 1976
TRANSCRIBER: Marjorie Hoffman



CE: Today is Tuesday, January 13, 1976. Continuing the Oral History program of the California Room, Marin County Library at Civic Center, this is Carla Ehat of the Moya Library Guild. We are recording from the residence of Mrs. Thomas Kent at 131 Goodhill Road in Kentfield, California and will be interviewing shortly Irma Leonhart Litz of 281 Alpha Crescent Road, San Anselmo, who has lived in San Anselmo since 1903, leaving only after her marriage and returning in the...What was it that you returned?

IL: Fifty two.

CE: It's a pleasure to welcome Irma Litz today and 'Good morning!'

IL: Good morning.

CE: Tell us, Irma, what brought your family to Marin County and why San Anselmo?

IL: Well, my mother and father were married in San Francisco and then they went to his ranch in Fresno and they came back to San Francisco and I was born there. And he was in the carpentry business and they heard of this beautiful Marin. My grandmother had gone to Larkspur in 1902.

CE: Tell me just a moment, when were you born? The month and day?

IL: September 28, 1894.

CE: Thank you.

IL: And then in 1902 my grandmother came to Larkspur and they saw Marin County and fell in love with Marin County. So my Dad went back to San Francisco again for another year and in 1903 he came over and built a home on San Rafael Avenue. And we were in that home during the big earthquake in 1906.

CE: Describe the town, then, would you, for us, Irma?

IL: Yes, it...

CE: Did San Anselmo go …

IL: There were just dirt roads and there were no sidewalks. They had a big wagon-bridge across the creek where Tamalpais Avenue is now and they put a wooden walk along the creek so people wouldn't have to walk in the mud all the time. They had a big bell, a big round iron thing, over by the Tamalpais Theater. It was all vacant then. And they had a great sledgehammer there and when there was a fire, the residents of San Anselmo would run and bang the big sledgehammer on the iron wheel that was there. They'd run and get the hose carts and all run to the fire dragging the hose carts. That was my first fire department that I saw. Then I saw them when they had the horses pull the fire wagon up to the present day of the electric.

CE: Was it a volunteer fire department at that time?

IL: Yes, it was volunteer fire department.

CE: I understand before they had their own horses if a man was out with his rig and the fire alarm was set off that if you were passing a firehouse they would commandeer your rig. Is that true?

IL: That’s right, yes.

CE: Well, there's an early 1903 photograph here and it appears to be Sir Francis Drake Boulevard, what is now that, it was the County Road. Is that as you remember it?

IL: Exactly.

CE: Would you describe some of the stores that front the depot?

IL: Well, the most particular store I loved was the Merchandise Store run by the Needhams. It had a long porch across the front like the old western days and they had a little bit of everything to sell inside the store.

CE: General Store? What else would be there?

IL: And there was a Post Office, a very small - about the size of a little realty office, and Mr. Taylor was the Postmaster at the time.

CE: Can you describe him for us? What was he like?

IL: Yes. He was a jolly fellow with red hair and there couldn't have been very many residences then, I guess I mean it wasn't very large.

CE: Did you go to the village to get your mail?

IL: Yes.

CE: Similar as they do in Ross today.

IL: And then I saw two more Post Offices since then.

CE: Well, at one time, I understand, the Depot was the smallest one in the whole county. It was subsequently replaced by this 1903 structure, which is good size. You never saw the other one? Depot?

IL: No, no, just that one there.

CE: How far was your home from this settlement where Needham's was? Could you walk down there?

IL: Oh, yes, it was only three blocks.

CE: After school and - three blocks --

IL: It was about three blocks. It was on San Rafael Avenue then. We were there during the big earthquake, on San Rafael Avenue.

CE: Now, what was your reaction on the morning of April 18, 1906? Where were you, in bed, I hope?

IL: Yes, we were both upstairs. We had a two-story house, we were both upstairs.

CE: Your sister and you?

IL: We were asleep. My sister was a little baby. And my mother woke me up. She said there was an oil lamp. We didn't have electricity yet, or a lamp. And she was screaming, "Irma, Irma, get out, get out, there’s an earthquake." So she ran down with the baby in her arms and I after her. And, oh, we were out in the backyard all week, afraid to go in the house because the trembles were quite frequent, trembling most of the time and we didn't want to put a fire in the house; everything was coal stoves you know then.

CE: Well, the construction of the town was such that there wasn't much that was leveled, was there. Weren't they all framed dwellings?

IL: No, no, nothing went down. Nothing went down, just the chimneys were thrown off the roofs. The whole chimneys, the whole chimney was thrown next door off our roof.

CE: Well, as a youngster what was your impression? Were you terribly frightened or was it an exciting thing for you?

IL: No, I wasn't terribly frightened. Even today I'm not frightened of them. No, I don’t --

CE: What happened to the trains? Was there a stoppage, do you remember, of all traffic or --

IL: Well, my Dad left home that morning because my Grandmother was living in San Francisco and she was right in the big fire on Valencia Street. And my Dad, we hadn't a word from him in a whole week because he couldn't get to us or get any message to us in any way at all. After that my --

CE: You mean a week later he went over to find out how she was?

IL: No, the day of the earthquake he went.

CE: How could he get over there?

IL: The ferry boats and the trains --

CE: I thought it was almost impossible to --

IL: No, there was no bridge –

CE: -- embark or disembark anybody in that few days immediately after the earthquake.

IL: No, he went over and he was gone a week.

CE: Was she okay?

IL: Yes. My -- Let's see, my grandmother had a place on Tamalpais Avenue --

CE: Did you ever live there?

IL: No. We built a home. We left San Rafael Avenue and moved to the back on Tamalpais and at the time of the earthquake my grandmother owned a home there then also. People came over and camped on her grounds. My Grandmother put up tents that came from the earthquake grounds. The Leaches came, these are big Leaches realtors—The Leaches people came over.

CE: Would you say Irma that the town really boomed after the earthquake?

IL: Yes.

CE: I mean, people came who had been initially summer residents and holiday visitors and then came over to permanently live.

IL: Yes, that's right. My grandmother had built … two other families camping at my Grandmother's. The Leaches impressed me the most. They had a sister named Elizabeth and then a Jim.

CE: James was the father who was the realtor?

IL: Yes.

CE: Well, there are several real estate offices as you know along the main part of Sir Francis Drake in San Anselmo, had that been somewhat a tradition from the days of its great sub-division by the Worn family?

IL: Well, at least right this minute all I can recall is the name of the people. I'd have to think that over, the rest of the real estate people. Pardon me, Rocca brothers -- that came to me.

CE: Oh yes. Getting back to those early days, before we move on, the steam trains you remember, of course, and the big watering---

IL: Oh yes. On Sunday they use to have picnics in Fairfax and they were always tough picnics. My Mother never allowed me to go to them. It was -- All the gangs that just would come over. And they’d bring these flat cars with benches along the side.

CE: Regular, open, weren't they?

IL: Yes, just flat cars, you know. And they'd come and whoop it up in Fairfax. I'd go down to the Depot and watch them all go by.

CE: By the time they had some beer from Sausalito and arrived at San Anselmo I understand they threw things off the train.

IL: Yes. Fairfax Park, that was something.

CE: But by the time you were a youngster there all of those early campgrounds along the creek there at San Anselmo had somewhat disappeared?

IL: There were no campgrounds along the creek, just my grandmother, just my grandmother. And then further up the tract, up Yolanda, was the Brennfleck’s. They had lots of them and they kept that up for many years.

CE: Well, how did -- It certainly continued as a resort area. What were some of the names of the early hotels there? There was the Ancha Vista. What were --

IL: There was one where the Cheda Building is now on the creek there. There was a hotel there, a rustic hotel.

CE: What was that called?

IL: And I've been trying for months, I’ve been trying to remember that name and I haven't been able to remember it.

CE: How about Cazeaux’s? Where was that?

IL: That's where Kientz's Bakery and those little buildings are now.

CE: I see, there was a hotel.

IL: As I said, the street doesn’t go through, San Anselmo Avenue didn't. So they had a footbridge over the creek to the depot.

CE: Would you tell us where the depot would be today?

IL: I can show you here.

CE: Like where the new park has been created and you have that store Kaufman's with its rear entrance. Is the Depot somewhat in that general area?

IL: Yes, just about where the entrance into Kaufman's is, you know? Right there.

CE: That's where the depot was.

IL: And a baggage room attaching it. And then up here ---

CE: And then there was a bridge that crossed the creek over to the end of San Anselmo Avenue?

IL: You mean a wagon bridge?

CE: Any kind of a bridge. San Anselmo Avenue came to a dead end.

IL: Yes, the creek, there was a big wagon bridge across there.

CE: That went to the Depot?

IL: Yes. And right there, this is San Anselmo Avenue and this is Tamalpais. Well from here to here was Cazeaux's. And this property here was owned by Mr. Burns. Mr. Burns, he had a nursery there. I went to school with Olive Burns. The wagon bridge went over here and then when they opened up San Anselmo Avenue ---

CE: When did that occur? Was that a big celebration?

IL: No, they just--no. They built Buckley's Grocery Store there then and across from Buckley's was the next Post Office. Nellie Farrell Ross was the Postmistress. And Frank Burrows was the Postmaster and now they have the next Post Office down where it is now.

CE: Do you remember, as a child, some of the discussion, Irma, when San Rafael had this great drive to create greater San Rafael movement and they wanted to absorb all the little communities along the way. Do you remember any discussion of that in your home? Because, it was that year that San Anselmo decided to incorporate and there was great conversation.

IL: My Uncle was the first Town Clerk.

CE: He was? What was his name?

IL: Arthur Moore.

CE: Well, the vote was close, it was 83 for incorporation and 79 against. You were a youngster then, it probably didn't interest you.

IL: My Dad was a builder.

CE: And you had never heard your family talk about the blind pigs, the unlicensed saloons. That had never been discussed in your home?

IL: The blind pigs?

CE: That's what they called them.

IL: That must have been real early. We didn't even have liquor in our house.

CE: Well, that was one of the reasons they incorporated. They felt they would have greater control over what was going on in the town and unlike San Rafael which had a saloon on every other corner, they thought hopefully they could prevent this from happening.

IL: I've thought of another real estate man, Mr. Studley.

CE: Now, what do you remember about Redhill?

IL: Well, when I was a kid I used to climb up to the top of it all the time.

CE: Do you remember the old road that went up there?

IL: Yes, I do.

CE: Did you ever hear the story of how it was built?

IL: Well, some said that they were going to put a hotel there.

CE: Well, that's one story. Did you ever hear the name DuBois or Henry Dubois? Did you ever hear that name in connection with the hill? Well, he had bought it and built the road with Chinese labor, bought the whole hill for eight thousand dollars, and also he owned the cemetery beyond it, Mount Tam, and he was ribbed about that.

IL: That's where all my relatives are.

CE: Did you ever hear of any springs and cottages on Redhill? Hot springs?

IL: No. Never.

CE: There was supposed to have been some. Jackie Mollenkopf is with us today from the Marin County Library. What is the story on that, Jackie?

JM: Well, one of the early state mineralogist reports does mention some springs on Redhill, in I think it was about 1913, and some cottages nearby on the adjacent property. I think down towards Ancha Vista. That's all it said. That's all I know.

CE: Is there anyway you could find out more about that?

IL: There's a very popular man, an old timer, they had a beautiful white house up there on Redhill, just to the right of where you turn to go to San Rafael, up in there, Tunstead, the old Tunstead home.

CE: Is there?

IL: The famous old place, yes. But if there was a spring, I mean it didn't amount to anything I don't think.

CE: Maybe you could find out something for us on that. You think you might inquire?

JM: On the Tunstead?

CE: On the possibility of there being some springs.

JM: Well, I could have. There's the Butlers who used to live next door on San Rafael Avenue. They were the old dairy people. And Margaret used to get up at four o'clock in the morning and hitch up the horse and wagon and go around and deliver milk in these one quart cans and pour it in your pitcher, you know? She's in a rest home now and the rest have passed away.

CE: Where was the dairy?

IL: The dairy, joined up in here. All that Linda Vista, all that area. I used to -- Before Robson’s house was built down here, I used to climb over a pigsty and go through the fields, over to the school, all grass and nothing but cows and bulls and whatever running around there and then shortly after that why Butlers sold the ranch and they went and lived on San Rafael Avenue.

CE: What was the first name of Butler, do you know?

IL: Her father's name was Michael.

CE: Michael Butler. Well, we'll look into that. Alright now, I see you brought some photographs with you, Irma. Here's one of the school. Where is this school today, the site of this school? Is that where the present Wade School is?

IL: Yes. They tore this down and they put up a big brick one. Then they didn't think it was safe so they tore the big brick one down and put this little thing up.

CE: It looks like a fine school. After you completed your education here where did you go?

IL: San Rafael High School.

CE: Did you elect to do that or was it the school? Maybe the district had been formed by that time.

IL: Well, about 1915, I think. I don't think Tamalpais was built in 1915, was it? Oh, what am I talking about. It was about 1912. I don't think Tamalpais was built then.

CE: But you went to San Rafael High School and I notice you've brought with you today your commencement program of 1911.

IL: Up on E Street. Up on E and Fourth.

CE: Principal W.L. Glasscot. And the faculty is Miss Veronica Dufficy, Latin and French; Miss Eleanor Gilogly, English; Miss Georgia Doody, Science, Chemistry and Physics; Miss Prince, Commercial courses; Miss Loretta Best, Drawing; Miss Laura Nagle, German and History; Miss Rose Higley, Botany and Zoology; and Alex Cuthebertson, Mathematics and Science; and Edmond Lee, Manual Training. What was your favorite subject there?

IL: The school? Just general. I only went there three years.

CE: Then what happened?

IL: I quit and went to San Francisco Business College.

CE: You went to the city.

IL: And then I fell in love and married.

CE: Well, backing up to 1912 --

IL: I was married in 1914.

CE: Well, before you got married, back up just a moment if you would. There's some things that occurred in your childhood that I think you ought to share with us. It's rumored that you participated in the Fourth of July celebrations all the time and I heard tell that you were the prettiest girl on the Queen's float.

IL: Oh, yes. The parade.

CE: Well, what was this Fourth of July celebration?

IL: Was Donnelly her name, Donnelly who used to write those articles in the Independent.

CE: Yes, Florence Donnelly was her.

IL: Yes. I met her up at Fairfax restaurant. What do you call it?

CE: Pastori's?

IL: No, no, not Pastori's -- Deer Park Villa. I was talking to her about the old days, you know, and she put that article in -- in the Independent.

CE: Well, tell us about the Fourth of July. What did the town do?

IL: There was a Mrs. Orr, she was my dancing teacher, and she had a class down at Corte Madera we all went to and she planned the floats for the parade. We had very beautiful parades, unbelievable the things that lady could do. She had a beautiful swan made and had may sister sit in there and then she had this Miss Liberty float and Miss ? was the Queen and she sat in the middle of the float and on each corner were four lovely ladies or girls. And we had long Roman gowns on. Mine was pale blue and I held a garland of pink hollyhocks, like this, while we were riding. And I was chosen the prettiest girl on the float. And they gave me a coupon to go to San Rafael to a coffee and tea store and gave me --I still have a big hand-painted plate like that and I've got that now at home in my--

CE: And that was your prize?

IL: That was my prize.

CE: Do you have any idea, Irma, how many floats would be in such a parade? San Anselmo really enjoys parades, I've discovered.

IL: Oh, yes. This is the horse and buggy days, you know. My Grandmother had a horse and surrey. And this is the horse and buggy days, there were no automobiles.

CE: But there would be a considerable amount of floats, wouldn't there?

IL: Oh, yes.

CE: Then what would conclude the afternoon or evening? Would you have a dance or would you go to a hall?

IL: Well, you see, I was only about eleven years old then so I don't remember that well.

CE: What the parents did. You probably had to go to bed early.

IL: Yes, I had that kind of mother and I'm glad.

CE: All right, now, while you were still at high school, about seventeen I guess, there was a snowfall, we hear, in San Anselmo in January of 1912. What happened?

IL: Yes, a beautiful snowfall. Biggest -- It was a real snowfall. You can see there it’s a big mountain --

CE: We have a photograph here. Now what is this bridge?

IL: Here’s the old Depot, see? 1911 bridge.

CE: The Depot. And what is this? Is this the one over the creek you were talking about?

IL: No, no.

CE: What is this bridge? Oh, I see, this is looking north. That would be Redhill.

IL: That's the railroad track right here. See? It's not a bridge, it's the railroad track going over it, past the Depot.

CE: What did you do, wake up in the morning and there it was?

IL: Yes. We were on --

CE: January the 9th, this photograph is labeled, January 9, 1912. And it shows the whole area covered with snow. Downtown San Anselmo.

IL: I phoned my friends in San Francisco and they all came over. Had a very dear friend in Ross, Gus Lang. His father owned a brewery in San Francisco.

CE: Did the whole county get the snow?

IL: He and my husband, before we were married, I phoned him and he came over and we had a grand time in the snow because we had never seen that much snow, you know. Now this house is right across from where the -- you know, the station was here. This is up on the hill. This is all solid with houses now.

CE: This is looking west. And this is from the train area. Beautiful.

IL: And this is where San Anselmo is now. It says San Anselmo Avenue. I mean Sir Francis Drake Boulevard.

CE: Well, speaking of weather, do you remember as a youngster any storms, floods, fires, anything that was ---

IL: We had beautiful weather in the early days in Marin County. We had beautiful weather. You could rely on a good six months of beautiful weather. No rain or any trouble at all. Early days in Marin County when we were here it was beautiful. Then as the years go on, about every twenty-five years I think climate everywhere changes. It cycles in Europe and then it goes back again to the ---

CE: Well, I've only lived in Marin, in Ross twenty years and it seems to me it was much hotter when we first came. But you don't remember any unusual floods or fires or anything that ---

IL: Oh, San Anselmo Creek was always overflowing.

CE: And where would it -- Would it go through the town then?

IL: Not any further than half a block up the street.

CE: But I mean the town is bordering the creek, as it is today --

IL: Well, just like it would go today, it would just go to the front door of the buildings, that's all. No real floods, though.

CE: Any fires that you remember that were dramatic?

IL: Old Redhill had a fire almost every year.

CE: Did it?

IL: Yeah.

CE: Well, fires were so important in those early days of Marin. Look at what it did to Tamalpais and Mill Valley and even in Ross. I just wondered if in your memory there was any dramatic thing that you recall.

IL: Not the last ---This weekend there was a big fire, you know, nothing --There were some houses burned around us ---

CE: Tell us, Irma, there are some early houses that are still standing in your area. I wonder if you can tell us what you remember. Did you ever see the Minthorne Thompkins home which was east of Redhill there or the Tunstead house?

IL: Tunstead’s one I suppose I remember.

CE: How about the Worn's house?

IL: The Worn's house? Were they on Ross Avenue?

CE: Ross Avenue and Jones. Had you visited any of these homes?

IL: No, no.

CE: See, there's the George Worn house on this 1875 photo. Of course, this is much before your time. How about the William Barber's? Had you even seen their home?

IL: No.

CE: Well, we do have one here and you brought a photograph of it and it's the Edwin Wood house which was built by him I understand, in 1906. He had come out, I understand, as a veteran from the Civil War and founded that E.K.Wood Lumber Company way back in 1895. And I didn't know until recently that schooner, the C.W. Thayer, that's at San Francisco Maritime Museum at the foot of Hyde Street was one of his lumber schooners. And it's now, of course, open to the public. And I think the Wood family lived there until his death in 1917. I think she continued on. Did you ever go in there when the Robsons lived there?

IL: He had a beautiful double team and surrey.

CE: It's a magnificent looking house. He took great pride in his gardens, I understand. You must have snuck into those gardens as a youngster, haven't you?

IL: No, I didn't, no.

CE: Or fruit trees -

IL: He had it pretty well fenced up. Before he built his house, though, I went through the property. It was all cows and dairy land.

CE: Well, I understand all this brick wall that he built along Raymond Avenue was built of bricks salvaged from old houses.

IL: Is that so?

CE: Probably. How do you feel about the City of San Anselmo absorbing this property as a park? Are you for that?

IL: Yes.

CE: I understand it was offered to the Theological Seminary and they turned it down.

IL: Yes - for taxes or something.

CE: Very expensive. Are there any other homes that you recall, as a young person visiting, prior to your marriage? Or telling us where they might be?

IL: No. San Anselmo never had many gorgeous homes, you know. It was just a little --

CE: What are your impressions, Irma, of the San Francisco Theological Seminary?

IL: Well, I started Sunday School at the Montgomery Chapel down at the bottom there when I was nine years old.

CE: Did you really?

IL: My mother went to that church and she went to every Grape Festival that ever was and she was very active in her church. And then they built the new church around the corner.

CE: Were you aware that the property had been given to the Seminary by A.W. Foster?

IL: No.

CE: He was a San Rafael philanthropist who had done so much for the community. Had you ever visited the Sunny Hills Orphanage?

IL: Yes. And every Sunday those children would get in line, two abreast you know, and walk from there clear down to my little church and back again. They were so cute, all walking along, just in a straight line, you know, boy, they were just as – (End of Side A)

CE: Well, now, Irma, you're grown up by this time, you've gone to San Rafael High School. You've gone to the city and taken a business course and about time you got married, wasn't it?

IL: Yes.

CE: How did you meet your husband?

IL: I was nineteen.

CE: Nineteen? How’d you meet your husband?

IL: I met him at the Rosebowl in Larkspur. 1911.

CE: And what was his name?

IL: Edward Litz.

CE: Edward Litz and you met him in 1911?

IL: Yes.

CE: Well, tell us what the Rosebowl dances were all about. What was it?

IL: Oh, just when jazz was coming in. When I was younger we did nothing but waltz and two-step. Then the other dances started to come in and they were accepted and we had a lot of fun.

CE: Would you describe it for us?

IL: They had lanterns lit up in the trees.

CE: It was an outdoor bowl under the redwoods.

IL: Yes, under the redwoods. And different gentlemen would come to Larkspur and rent homes in the summertime and they'd call them the club names, the Sphinx and the Omego and the Hinkey Dinks. There were many others I don't recall right now. But they’d stay for about three months of the summer.

CE: Now would you have a live orchestra always playing at the Bowl?

IL: Oh, yes, surely. That's when Alexander's Rag Time Band came out.

CE: I bet you loved to dance too, didn't you? Where was Edward living then? San Francisco?

IL: San Francisco. My daughter was born in San Francisco and my son was born in Ross.

CE: All right, you were married in 1914, did you say? And then moved to San Francisco?

IL: Yes, that's right.

CE: Well, you were there then when the Panama Pacific Exposition --

IL: Oh, yes, that was gorgeous. We had a season ticket for it. It was magnificent.

CE: Would you come back to marvelous Marin?

IL: No, I was living in San Francisco all the time and --

CE: But would you ever go visit your family and --

IL: Oh, yes, back and forth all the time. My Dad was a builder.

CE: Tell us about your father. He built homes, maybe, or business? Stores and commercial buildings?

IL: Yes, he built homes. Anything. Carpenter work.

CE: Throughout the whole county?

IL: Yes.

CE: Are there any buildings that he has built that are still around?

IL: Uh, let's see. There are a lot of homes. I couldn't point them out to you right now.

CE: But there are some?

IL: Oh, yes. This is going back sixty years. He built our two houses personally.

CE: When your husband was courting you, did you ever take him on any rides out to Bolinas? Did you ever go out there?

IL: No.

CE: But you did as a family?

IL: Yes.

CE: Would you describe one of those for us? How would you do it?

IL: Well there was a particular one, they hired a big wagon and a double team of horses and all the family went over in the wagon, camped over there for a weekend.

CE: That must have taken you a half a day at least to get over there.

IL: Oh, yes, more than that, at least a full day. Through Stinson Beach it was really that we camped at.

CE: Do you remember the actual road you went on? Did you go over dirt roads, or where Alpine Dam is today and up over that way?

IL: No. Went around, you know like you do now.

CE: Around, over White's Hill?

IL: No, this way, this side of Tamalpais.

CE: This side of Tamalpais. Through Mill Valley, you mean? I see.

IL: Yes. I couldn't give you the exact location that we went from there.

CE: When you moved to the city, did you live there for a great number of years?

IL: Yes, I was there eight years before my daughter was born and then he bought me a beautiful home out in Westford and then he was transferred down south.

CE: What was his line of work?

IL: When I married him he was with the Pacific Steamship Company and then when we left San Francisco he was with Foster and Kleiser Company.

CE: Has he been gone a long time?

IL: I was carrying my son at the time and when he went south I came and lived with my mother and my son was born at Ross. I went to Ross for an x-ray a couple months ago and they just raved about me. The doctors and nurses "come look at me.” Imagine! They do! And I was embarrassed. I gave the nurse my age and when I went into the x-ray room there were three nurses standing there and she said we're all waiting to see you when you come in and the doctor looked in and looked at me and it was getting embarrassing.

CE: But your son was born at Ross Hospital there?

IL: Yes. And when I had an x-ray there they said, "Have you ever been in this hospital before?" and I said, "Yes, fifty one years ago when my son was born here."

CE: Was it then a sanitarium or had it been converted to a hospital?

IL: It was a hospital.

CE: It was a sanitarium originally by Hund.

IL: Dr. Lansing was the doctor.

CE: Dr. Lansing. Where does your son live? Do your children live near you?

IL: He was three weeks old and I went down south, Beverly Hills. I had two children who were raised in Beverly Hills from kindergarten to high school.

CE: And you've been back in San Anselmo how long? Twenty years, maybe?

IL: Twenty four years.

CE: Have you been a widow long?

IL: I'm not a widow. I was divorced. What’s the difference!

CE: So you came back to the old homestead. Did you live in the same home of your family or did you build one for yourself?

IL: No, I went and lived with my mother. And then she had a stroke and had to go and live in a rest home and I bought my piece of property that I have now.

CE: You live on Crescent Road. Tell me some of those early names. Did you ever know a George Van Orden? A dentist?

IL: I've heard of him but I never went to him.

CE: How about Arthur Bell, does that ring a name? Robert Carey?

IL: Doctor Taylor. Doctor Robert Taylor.

CE: That's right, we've heard of his name.

IL: Doctor Robert Taylor. He lived up across the street from Robson's house. His property was over there.

CE: How about William Deysher, does that name mean anything to you?

IL: Oh, yes, he lived on the same street as my mother, a couple of houses down the street.

CE: Do you know a story relative to that gentleman?

IL: Yes, the poor guy they tried to put him in San Quentin. He was innocent, they tell me.

CE: He ran a garage as I understand it.

IL: Yes, he did, Deysher's Garage.

CE: And fixed some equipment that belonged to the city or something, anyway. Did he go to jail?



AK: Yes, he did.

IL: Did he go, Anne, for a short time?

CE: That's what I thought. It seems so strange in today's world we live in.

IL: Oh, dear, what they do today. I think it was mostly politics with Deysher



AK: He was a fine man.

CE: He had been elected as supervisor, too, in 1924. San Francisco newspapers broke the story, did you know of it, Mrs. Kent?



AK: Well, may I say something? He is the supervisor that we helped to put in so that we might get a County Library, so you'd better know about him.

CE: Well, let's hear it.



AK: Well, we had some supervisors who simply wouldn't do anything for the county, for us to get the County Library, so those of us who were working on it so hard thought the only thing to do was to get another supervisor in place of the one who just holds everything up and so we did get him. And I forget what the thing was that he did.

IL: It was very small, but --



AK: I don't remember whether he rode something or did some work on one piece of equipment that belonged to the county or didn't belong to the county.

CE: Well, it's said that he is reported to have repaired county equipment in his San Anselmo Garage and fixing county roads on the sly using small operators to front for him. That was the thing that he was into.



AK: That was too bad, that was bad to do it.

CE: Yes. We sort of skipped by your schooling, Irma, not intentionally, but you have brought this commencement folder from San Rafael High School in 1911. I wonder if you could describe for us a typical day at school. How would you get there, number one? How would get to high school?

IL: I commuted on the electric train.

CE: Where did that run to?

IL: To West End and walked over to the high school.

CE: You got off at West End or got on?

IL: Got off to go to high school and got on to come home.

CE: Well, do it the other way. When you left San Anselmo you'd take the train from San Anselmo Junction to --how far?

IL: West End. Did you know there was a West End?

CE: Well, I know, but where was the high school?



AK: That's a long walk.

IL: Well, the next stop was way down B Street.

CE: Where was the high school?

IL: One Fourth and E.

CE: Oh, I see. Fourth and E is where the high school -- I was thinking of its present location. Okay, so you get off at West End and walk over. What was it like at school? Did you have to wear a uniform, middy skirt or anything?

IL: No, no uniforms. The styles were long skirts to the ankles called hobble skirts. We used to split them so we could walk in them.

CE: And a blouse, shirtwaist?

IL: Whole dress. I wore dresses all the time like I do now.

CE: When did class start in the morning, at nine, eight?

IL: Nine. Nine to three.

CE: Fourth and E. Okay. Do you remember some of the courses you took? The faculty is here. Do you remember some of these teachers?

IL: Yes, I knew Miss Gilogly well and --

CE: Eleanor Gilogoly Murray.

IL: Miss Higley and Miss Best. My drawings there from Miss Best.

CE: Miss Best, she taught you drawing. Miss Gilogly, English. Did you take any commercial courses from Miss Prinze? Or Nagle? Did you take German or --

IL: No.

CE: Did they have any physical education in those days as they do in school? Did you go out and do archery or exercises or whatever they -- Did they have anything like that?

IL: Basketball team. They wanted me to join but I wouldn't.

CE: Why didn't you want to do that? Too athletic, you weren't interested in athletics?

IL: I just didn't care for it. I played tennis. We had a tennis court in my mother's first home, so I passed my time playing tennis.

CE: Well, that's interesting. Who did you play with? You had a sister, didn't you? Mary, was that here name?

IL: Yes, but there's eight and a half years between us, so she was an infant when we came to San Anselmo.

CE: Who did you play tennis with, your school friends, school mates, and your neighbors?

IL: Yes. And next door, the Butler girl. My uncles all played, my uncles.

CE: Were you a good player?

IL: Oh, well -- nothing --

CE: Was this a clay court?

IL: It was clay.

CE: Do you ever watch tennis matches today on television?

IL: Oh, yes.

CE: Isn't that an extraordinary thing?

IL: Wonderful. All for money, though.

CE: All right, I gather you don't want to tell us too much about your high school days. Did you enter any theatrical things?

IL: There really isn't nothing exciting. We didn't do anything unusual.

CE: Did they put on any plays?

IL: Yes, they did.

CE: Were you in the theatrical end of it?

IL: No.

CE: Evidently it didn't put you in the direction you wanted to go so you left and went to business school. Did you find that more satisfying?

IL: Yes.

CE: What did you learn? Where did you go in San Francisco? What school?

IL: San Francisco Business College.

CE: For three years. What did you learn, shorthand?

IL: Shorthand, stenography.

CE: At that time what system did they teach? Gregg?

IL: Yes.

CE: Well, we've got to get back to San Anselmo that's all there is to it. Are there any shop owners or proprietors that you remember that you'd like to share with us? Now some of these present shops -- Keintz is perhaps San Anselmo's oldest bakery. Do you remember the Keintz children and family?

IL: Oh, yes. The Keintz and the Buckley's Grocery Store.

CE: Where was the Buckley's?

IL: Right where Kaufman's store is now, on the creek.

CE: Was that a General Store?

IL: No, regular grocery.

CE: A grocery store.

IL: And the butcher was across the street.

CE: Did you shop for your family? Did your mother send you shopping or not? Or did she do it?

IL: Buckley's delivered everything.

CE: Horse and rig?

IL: Yes. Until later on, you know, this was over a period of many, many years, you know.

CE: I realize that but in the early days they would deliver with horse and rig?

IL: Yes.

CE: The butcher also?

IL: Yes.

CE: Did you ever have a Chinese vegetable man come around?

IL: Yes. He used to come with a stick on his shoulders and a big basket on each side, big wicker baskets.

CE: And would he bring specific things or did he peddle from door to door or would he come to your home on request or would he just come?

IL: Just vegetables. Oh, he'd just come, up and down the streets. Weren't many houses then, you know.

CE: Well, for example, your initial home that your father built was it sitting on a good piece of land, do you recall?

IL: Yes, it's there now and it's beautiful.

CE: I mean was it on a half acre or something like that?

IL: Oh, no, just a fifty by a hundred and fifty.

CE: But there weren't many homes. How about the ice wagon, did they come around with a horse and wagon with ice?

IL: Yes, they came around. In fact I've got the pick that my mother used to use, ice pick, and it's got the phone number on it. The phone number is 44.

CE: Well, I don't recall when telephones first came in and I don't suppose you do. Do you?

IL: I do, yes. Butler's next door had one, on the wall. You went like this, you know, to get the operator and it was the first phones I ever saw.

CE: What would your family do in an emergency? How would you communicate? Send somebody out in the wagon? For instance, when someone was sick and you needed the doctor, was he right there in San Anselmo? Do you recall, Irma?

IL: I'm trying to remember the doctors we had then.

CE: But you'd send someone for the doctor perhaps?

IL: No, we had doctors. Doctor Jones and Doctor Schwartz.

CE: Is that Roy Farrington Jones' father? Grandfather perhaps?

IL: He lived up there on the railroad tracks. He had a daughter, Emma, Emma Jones. She lives here in Ross now.

CE: Well, I just wondered, you don't recall how you went to get these people in emergency times?

IL: In fact I don't remember having a doctor very often. It was lucky people in those times.

CE: You’re an extraordinary, fortunate woman.

IL: My father died at 82 and he'd never been in a hospital. My mother died at 92.

CE: And where did your mother come from? How did she get to California?

IL: Ohio

CE: What is her heritage?

IL: Her mother and father are Irish. My father's father left Germany. We had a Tyler VonLeonhart. When he came to America and the father dropped the Von. He didn’t like the title.

CE: Do you spell your name L-e-o-n-h-a-r-t, no “d” in it?

IL: Yes. Some do though, some have the “d” in it.

CE: Are there any other people in San Anselmo you' d like to share with us? Who were some of your girlfriends you grew up with? Are they still in this area?

IL: Josephine Butler was my pal most of the time.

CE: Is she still alive?

IL: No, she passed away four years ago.

CE: What was her married name? Did she marry?

IL: She never married. There were five Butler's. None of them ever married. The boy nor the girls.

CE: They must have had a very pleasant situation at home.

IL: One girl became a Nun. She is still alive. She's about 88.

CE: Is she over at Dominican, do you know?

IL: No, she's at San Francisco.

CE: Any other schoolmates?

IL: I tell you the town was so small and so few people I can't --

CE: Well, you haven't mentioned too much yet about your sister. You had a sister, Mary.

IL: Yes, I had a sister.

CE: And she was eight years younger -

IL: Eight and a half years younger than I and we brought her over here as an infant. Her pal was Virginia Vail, the librarian in San Rafael for many years.

CE: Do you know her Jackie? Do you know of who she is speaking?

JM: The County Librarian for thirty-two years. She retired just after I started to work there and I've been there almost eight years now.

CE: Did she precede Virginia Keating?

JM: How is Virginia Keating?

CE: Oh, I beg your pardon. The same gal. And your sister and she were friends?

IL: Yes, they went to Tamalpais High and Virginia Vail lived on Ross Avenue.

CE: I didn't know that. We have to interview her in greater depth, we just had a brief narrative.

IL: You see that street used to go through the school grounds and they closed that street up and made the school grounds bigger.

CE: The Wade School?

IL: Between Woodland and Ross in there, that street used to go through. Well, the street that went past here. They closed that up.

CE: So that's where she lived. Did you and your sister take any trips together or did girls do it in those days?

IL: No, there was too big a difference in our ages. She was about twelve when I married, you know.

CE: Is she still alive?

IL: Yes, yes. She's been married three times.

CE: Where does she live? Does she live in Marin?

IL: She's living in Mexico right now. They built a home down there.

CE: What do you know about the Cordones?

IL: The Cordones had a big wagon and a double team of horses. They came around to all the houses every day and their vegetable garden was where the Sir Francis Drake High School is right now. It was a big vegetable garden.

CE: Well, this is later on, this is after the Chinese man with the ---

IL: Oh, about the same time. This is going back about a generation ago because the Cordones, you know, the son Cordone's in realty here. I'm going way back.

CE: That's true. Well, I'm just trying to place them in a time frame of the Chinese.

IL: And Ongaro, he did business with my father, did the plumbing for my father's jobs but I don't think they're such old-timers, are they?

CE: Well, I don't know, that's why we're asking you. They're just names that are in San Anselmo today, and we wondered if their heritage

IL: Cordone. They’re old-timers.

CE: Did you know their children?

IL: No. They lived way up towards Fairfax way.

CE: San Anselmo has sort of an unusual geographical line. It starts right at Bolinas Avenue where Ross leaves off. It goes up to Redhill. It's on the left side of Sir Francis Drake and then when you turn and go west, it divides and is on north and south side of Sir Francis Drake and includes part of Sleepy Hollow. Did you ever get out in that part when you were a youngster?

IL: Sleepy Hollow was a big dairy ranch and I used to take my children up there and watch them milk the cows. There was a big dairy ranch at the end of the road but that's all gone, too.

CE: What did your family do for simple diversions on Sundays? Did you go on picnics or did you stay at home?

IL: Well, my mother walked up to church every Sunday.

CE: What church did she go to? The Presbyterian at the Seminary?

IL: The Chapel.

CE: Montgomery Chapel?

IL: Yes. She went there and I went to Sunday School there. In those days I wasn't allowed to go to a ball game and things like that. I had a very strict mother.

CE: Well, of course, you had your own tennis courts. How did she feel about you having your friends over and at home?

IL: Oh, she always had open house for them.

CE: Was Sunday the big day for the family dinner?

IL: Yes, mostly family, because we had a big family. There were five on my mother's side and we all lived right in the same area. It was all family.

CE: What was Christmas like in your big old house?

IL: It was always held at my grandmother’s up the street.

CE: Kind of a command performance, that's where you'd go?

IL: And my uncle always dressed as Santa Claus.

CE: Do you remember the tree then? Did you have the candles?

IL: Candles, yes, we had the old candles on the tree and we always had a bucket of water near it in case of emergency.

CE: Well, would the candles be lit for just a brief period?

IL: No, they didn't seem to be afraid. They just let them burn down.

CE: Like Christmas Eve would be the night you do this?

IL: Yes, we always had Christmas, Christmas Eve.

CE: Well, that's the German tradition, too, and exchange your gifts then.

IL: My grandmother and grandfather were Irish.

CE: On your mother's side?

IL: Yes.

CE: Would you have the traditional supper or would you often have a goose?

IL: Just the traditional.

CE: The traditional. Did you ever get anything for Christmas that was an outstanding thing in your memory, a surprise to you?

IL: I couldn't answer that -- just regular --

CE: The traditional things.

IL: I got a doll, I still have it. The doll is seventy-five years old, and I gave it to my little grand-daughter.

CE: How wonderful. You must have loved that doll.

IL: Yes.

CE: Lived in San Anselmo all these years, on and off, the way that the town has evolved. Are you pleased with what's happened?

IL: Yes, I think San Anselmo is very beautiful and I'm very proud of it. This Kaufman's store is something to be very proud of ---

CE: Isn't that a beautiful place.

IL: And our Fire Department is now going to move and put up a new building between Tamalpais Avenue and San Rafael Avenue which will add more beauty to our town.

CE: Well, that's wonderful to hear from someone who has been a resident and long time.

IL: And we're very proud of our Police Department. I think they do wonders for the people of San Anselmo and our Fire Department, I can speak well of.

CE: And you think it's a desirable residential community?

IL: I do.

CE: Mrs. Kent, would you care to comment?

AK: Well, I think so, too. I think, just as Irma said, it's a growing thing. It's quite young and now that the railroad is gone and the town is no longer divided by both railroad and roads it has a chance to become one-unit more than before. It is a fine place for commuters to live and if I were young I would be tempted to work for San Anselmo and its wonderful growth.

CE: Well it has a great deal of charm. And as you said earlier it has a Carmel-like atmosphere, a beautiful setting. There is no view more extraordinary in Marin, in my judgment, than when you leave San Rafael and approach San Anselmo and see that Theological Seminary up on the hill and the watershed of Tam and the views.

IL: My property faces the Seminary, on a little knoll, and I have a complete half circle of view from my little house. Beautiful.

CE: Wonderful. Well perhaps Irma Leonhart Litz, we can come and visit you someday, all of us, and --

IL: Oh, I'd love to have you. Come up and help me chase the deer.

CE: Well, we'd love to see your collection. I'm sure you have in your own home some memorabilia of early days.

IL: No, I just have a little three-room house.

CE: Do you have a collection of photographs at all?

IL: No. They were all left at my mother's when she sold it. I left it with my mother and then she sold it.

CE: I see. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming here today and sharing your reminiscences.

IL: I hope I've helped a little.

CE: You certainly have. And we want to thank Jackie Mollenkopf of the Marin County Library at Civic Center for arranging this delightful interview today.