End, Side A

CE: Well, Mr. Rowland is back now with the translation of the original grant that Governor Alvarado gave to Ignacio Pacheco and he is going to read a little of the introduction and the boundaries.

HR: Yes, this is dated at Monterey, October 3, 1840, and it begins: "In view of the petition with which this expediente (file) begins with the report from the Senior Commandant of the frontier of the north and whatever else that seems to be proper in conformity with the law and regulations on the matter, I declare Don Ignacio Pacheco owner in fee of the place named San Jose. Bounded by the Puerto Suello, gap of the Las Gallinas by the Arroyo of San Jose by that of the name of Los Trasinos in the Sierra. Let the proper grant be made out, let it be entered in the proper book and let this expediente be transmitted to the departmental assembly, vested Juan B. Alvarado, Constitutional Governor of the Department of the Californias decree and assign." And it is signed by Alvarado. A part of this is interesting in that outlining of the restrictions and conditions, there aren't very many. The first one is: "He may enclose it without prejudice to the crossing roads and servitudes. He shall enjoy it fully and exclusively by putting it to such use in cultivation as may best suit him but within one year he shall build a house and it shall be inhabited." The second is: “He shall solicit to the proper judge to give him judicial possession by virtue of this dispatch, by whom the boundaries shall be marked out at the limits of which he should put besides landmarks, fruit trees as forest trees of some use. The land of which mention is made is of one square league, a little more or less as is represented by the map which is the expediente.”

CE: Well, I understand, Mr. Rowland, that shortly thereafter he started work on his adobe residence. What do you know of that original adobe?

HR: I don't really know too much. I remember it only vaguely

CE: Is it true that Indians were brought in from Mendocino to help in its construction?

HR: That is the story and I'm sure that it is true, from Mendocino.

CE: Well, in talking to a descendant of Chief Marin, who we had the pleasure of interviewing some months ago, many Indians left here from the Alonkoleague line and went up to Mendocino but they had been taught how to make adobe bricks by the Spaniards and evidently were very adept at it. Did your ever hear that?

HR: No, I didn't. I'm sure they were instructed. I don't know how interested they were in construction. Actually, I'm going to make a few adobe bricks myself for use around here.

CE: Is this land conducive for adobe bricks?

HR: Oh yes, we have the clay.

CE: Well, tell me, the adobe had been lived in for some years and I understand it was destroyed by fire.

HR: Yeah, that was in 1923.

CE: Something along that line. Now, are there some remains left of the adobe or is there any site that you can point to today that would be on the place where the adobe had been constructed?

HR: All I can think of that is still around that would be some sort of a mark is a palm tree such as the one out in front. This, of course, is quite close to Frank Galli’s place down the line.

CE: Frank Galli is the restaurant man and he has been at one time interested and President of the Marin County Historical Society, I believe.

HR: He has been very interested in Ignacio, mainly, as a place

CE: I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us about this famous story of your great-grandfather and his encounter with Captain John Fremont. Is it more than legend, sir?

HR: I think it’s factual. I have Ignacio’s sword up in my study upstairs and I have no reason to believe he couldn’t use it.

CE: Well, a duel almost ensued, would you tell us as you remember it or as you’ve researched what happened in 1846. Give us a little background.

HR: The story goes that Fremont was, oh I guess you would call it requisitioning stock and provisions and whatever else on his forays through northern California.

CE: Was he sent as an army map surveyor?

HR: He was exceeding his authority, I think, in a lot of respects as I heard it. In any case, when he was reported to be heading this way, Ignacio thought he’d better get his better animals out of reach, which he did, and the residue, the nags and whatever, didn’t interest Fremont very much. In fact he, I gather, was a little upset not to --

CE: Not to come in and find some lovely fresh horses and what-not. Your great-grandfather sounded very resourceful.

HR: Yes, he was. He was also, as the rest of the clan, very proud of his place and it’s his place and that’s the way it is, Fremont be damned.

CE: He didn’t want any army American telling him what to do.

HR: So he got away with that one. I guess it would have been a mismatch if Fremont opened fire.

CE: Well, this was just prior to the Bear Flag incident, wasn’t it?

HR: Yes.

CE: Do you wonder, as a descendant of this family, what might have happened or occurred if Fremont had never come west and this whole Bear flag thing had never transpired? Do you ever fantasize over that?

HR: Yes, quite often.

CE: You could probably be the governor and the owner of California, certainly Northern California.

HR: This transcript I’m working on now has to do with what Ignacio had to go through to hang on to the land.

CE: Well, give us a little story of that, you don’t have to talk specifically about your own family, but there was a period, after the Bear Flag Revolt and when this, 1850, when many of the original Mexican Land Grants were questioned --

HR: They all were --

CE: They all were, correct. Then where did the appeals go, back to Washington? Was there a lands commission?

HR: No. They sent a commission that worked out of San Francisco and this was in 1852.

CE: What was the point of that, to put credence to the original grants or to try to take them away or negate them?

HR: No, apparently they started on the assumption that when it ceased to be Mexican, everything here came to the United States.

CE: It was up for grabs.

HR: And it was up to the holders of the grants to establish that they were there. From what I gather it was, cards were sort of stacked against them. It was expensive, and I’m sure a lot of the grants fell by the wayside just through these proceedings.

CE: Well, the lawyers had to be hired to represent the grantees, they acquired much of land, I understand and, as you said earlier in this afternoon’s little dialog that you felt fortunate that you’re still descendents of the original grantee that have the land.

HR: Oh, I’m very fortunate. Now in this particular proceedings, the commissioners ruled in favor of Ignacio.

CE: Do you have any awareness of how long this adjudication took?

HR: Well, it started in 1852 and was concluded in 1855 or ‘57.

CE: Mercy, almost five years of litigation for -- to substantiate the legality of your own property.

HR: After the first ruling the government appealed and in their appeal, I guess they were grasping at straws or whatever; their main thrust was in attacking the validity of Alvarado’s signature. So witnesses were called, three or four of them, and they testified that they had seen Alvarado write and that, without a doubt, the original grant was genuine and in Alvarado’s signature.

CE: Well, some stories I’ve read about some of the grants out in West Marin, for example, it was rather casual how these grantees set out their property boundaries, where it would appear that your great grandfather was very much more astute in the way he did it and that, probably, don’t you imagine, enabled him to make his case stronger. Or what, in your judgment, saved him compared to so many of those people who lost out?

HR: Well, I guess it was just foresight and plain determination.

CE: He was alive still at the time, was he not, sir?

HR: Oh, yes. He died in ‘64. These proceedings were in ‘52 to ’55 or ‘57.

CE: Don’t you imagine also, by virtue of the fact that there was recorded in Marin County who -- The county is as old as the state, is that not so, and he was the first alcalde, and there was written evidence to show what his contribution had been, whereas in many other cases these gentlemen didn’t have that.

HR: Yes, and as the grant says, one of the conditions is that he should duly record it, which he did. The description of the property is massive as it’s recorded. Well, it starts from “an old oak tree” and goes around and around.

CE: We had the privilege of seeing one not long ago of the Murray property which is part of the Rancho San Quentin and it’s all done in long hand and described in great detail and then the sum of money set forth in U. S. dollars, gold. Of course, this was much later than your great-grandfather’s time. Did the government, as a matter of curiosity, did the government do anything by giving you a paper from the American Government substantiating this grant or was it reverted in some way just to the original land grant as signed by Governor Alvarado? Did you get a release or confirmation in your family?

HR: Yes, it is in here that the government recognized the claim and the land as being Ignacio’s, finally. After they lost, they were going to take the case to the Supreme Court of the United States.

CE: I wondered about that because some of them had reached that point.

HR: Then they dropped that. After losing two rounds, I guess they gave up. Ignacio wasn’t about to.

CE: To your knowledge, did your great-grandfather have to have much legal assistance in this?

HR: Yes, he did. Of course he did. I think appearing before this commission and the rest of it as a Spanish landholder he would be a little bit at sea –

CE: Well, this xerox copy of a document before you on the footstool, is part of that legal proceeding, sir?

HR: This is all of it.

CE: “Transcript proceedings in the case number 198, Ignacio Pacheco claimant versus the United States defendant for the place named San Jose.” It is an imposing document.

HR: It sure is.

CE: And here on the first page is a map of the description.

HR: That is a very rough map.

CE: But it substantiates this --

HR: That was the basis that Ignacio presented when he went to the Mexican Government for the land, the rough map.

CE: And, of course, upon this was predicated the grant, his being given the grant by the government.

HR: That is correct. And then, of course, the description had to be refined.

CE: Where, may I ask, did you acquire -- Where is the original of such document, in the County Courthouse or in the National Archives?

HR: That would be in the federal Archives. Have to thank Frank Galli for that and where he got it, I don’t know.

CE: Well, that is an extraordinary thing.

HR: I’m very happy to have it, because it does have things in there that I was unaware of, that Agua Caliente business for one, I’d never heard of it. It hadn’t been mentioned around here.

CE: Well, I tell you, Mr. Rowland, this has been a fascinating discussion. We do have some little more time on the tape. Is there anything else you would like to tell us in your own words about your family? I would imagine you are very proud indeed of what has been accomplished, the tenacity of your great-grandfather in protecting his lawful land. Are there any feeling you’d like to tell us about?

HR: Well, I feel as they did, we’re determined to keep it as it is for as long as we can and fortunately my boy is very much interested in family history and in preserving this place.

CE: Is it your plan to have him inherit this after you?

HR: That has all been arranged.

CE: And he wants to perpetuate the ranch?

HR: That’s his aim in life, to keep it the way it is.

CE: Isn’t that wonderful? Isn’t that extraordinary?

HR: He is something like I am, he needs a little room.

CE: Well, we certainly want to thank you, Mr. Rowland, for your reminiscences today and we do so appreciate your generosity in providing this material for the archives of the California History Room and there is no doubt in our mind that future students of history of Marin County will find this a rich source. Your narrative has been very interesting today, the story of your remarkable family. Your family certainly has contributed much to the heritage of this county and you can indeed be very proud. We want to thank you, and may we come back sometime again as your research continues and you have something you would like to leave to the archives?

HR: You certainly may, and it’s been a pleasure to talk to you and I’m available any time.

CE: Before we leave then, maybe you would show us around your lovely home of which we will take some photographs to include in your file in the archives of the California Room and you are to be complimented, as your mother and family before you, in maintaining it in such an extraordinary condition. This house is almost 100 years old and it is a beautiful replica of the Victorian architecture.

HR: Well, Frances has a lot to do with that. She’s --

CE: I’m sorry your wife is not here today to join us.

HR: I am too, she is very interested in the Victorian period, this house, and the family, too, and she has jumped right in to do it properly.

CE: We didn’t talk about her and I meant to in this one degree, too. I believe Mrs. Kent mentioned that she has been active in the Marin Art and Garden Center.

HR: She is very much in the Laurel House and antique part of it.

CE: Well, your home reflects it, a love of treasures, that’s for certain. We’re sorry to have missed her, perhaps when we come back again she can tell us of her interest in this remarkable home.

HR: Well, I hope you will come back; she would like to meet you.

CE: This is Carla Ehat concluding our interview today. We have been speaking with Herbert Rowland, great, great, great-grandson of Ignacio Pacheco and this is Friday the 21st of February, 1975.