ORAL HISTORY PROJECT OF THE MARIN COUNTY FREE LIBRARY Anne T. Kent California Room Original recording available at the Anne T. Kent California Room © All materials copyright Marin County Free Library. Transcript made available for research purposes only. All rights are reserved to the Marin County Free Library. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the: Anne T. Kent California Room Marin County Free Library 3501 Civic Center Dr. #427 San Rafael, California, 94903

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INTERVIEW WITH ELLEN REDDING MCNEIL
by Carla Ehat & Anne Kent
July 25, 1980

INTERVIEWEE: Ellen Redding McNeil (EM); Martha McNeil (MM)
INTERVIEWERS: Carla Ehat (CE) and Anne Kent (AK)
DATE OF INTERVIEW: July 25, 1980
TRANSCRIBER: Marjorie Hoffman



CE: Today is Tuesday, July 15, 1980. Continuing the Oral History project of the California Room, this is Carla Ehat and joining me today is Mrs. Thomas Kent. And we are way out in Nicasio at 7500 Lucas Valley Road and are going to have the pleasure shortly of talking with Ellen Redding McNeil and her daughter, Martha. Ellen was born in Nicasio July 9, 1899 and her mother, Ellen Murray, was also born here. It's nice to be here this afternoon, Ellen.

EM: Thank you. It's nice to have you here.

CE: Tell me a little bit now about your parents. Tell me about your father first. Joseph Redding? Was that his name?

EM: Yes, it was.

CE: Where was he born?

EM: He was born in Millerton, California.

CE: And that's just up along Tomales Bay, isn't it?

EM: Yes, it is. South of Marshall. And then they moved from there to Nicasio, to the Redding Ranch. There were how many children in the Redding family?

MM: Five, I believe.

EM: Five children.

CE: Five children. Your father was one of five?

EM: One of five.

CE: Did they have a ranch? What was their ranch, dairy or - - -

EM: Dairy ranch, milk cows.

CE: What year was your father born? Do you know?

MM: I think your Mother was born in 1864 and I think your Father was born in like 1865.

CE: This is Martha joining us in this conversation. Thank you, Martha. What brought your family to West Marin? Did you ever hear? Where did they come from?

EM: My Grandfather was supposed to have come from Boston.

CE: From Boston.

EM: Grandpa Redding.

CE: Grandpa Redding. Did he come by sea, do you know, to San Francisco and over?

EM: I don't know.

CE: You never heard the story then?

EM: No, not of Grandpa Redding.

CE: But they were the first to come. And your Redding family, your grandparents?

EM: I think my Grandfather Murray was the first to come.

CE: Grandfather Murray.

EM: Yes, my mother’s father.

CE: Did he come from Ireland?

EM: Yes, he came from Ireland. Arrived in New York and traveled down the coast to the Isthmus of Panama and started to cross the Isthmus on mule back.

CE: What was his name? Do you recall?

EM: Cornelius Murray.

CE: Wonderful.

EM: Cornelius Murray.

CE: Do you know what part of Ireland he came from?

EM: No, I don't. I'm sorry, I don't know. I can't answer that.

CE: But they came by sea. You know, it's interesting. There are a lot of Marin families that came by sea. That would make an interesting story in itself, Anne. You know these sea pioneers. When you keep thinking of everybody crossing the plains in covered wagons. So, they settled out there?

EM: So Grandfather Murray had the Yellow Fever and became very, very ill crossing the Isthmus. So he was nursed back to health. I don't know how long that took. And they got him over to the west part of the Isthmus. And then he took another boat and came to San Francisco and arrived in Nicasio.

CE: Well, there was a center out here, I think when we talked to Nellie McIsaac, there are lots of dairy ranches and there was a need for Swiss and Irish help. I suppose that's what generated him out here. And their ranch was where? In Millerton?

EM: No, Redding’s were in Millerton.

CE: Where was the Murray? Where did Murrays work?

EM: Up near the Rancheria Road.

CE: Did you ever know your Grandparents?

EM: No, I don't remember them at all. They were gone.

CE: Were they gone before you were born?

EM: They were gone.

CE: They were gone before you were born. Tell us a little bit about your family. Tell us about your father, Joseph. You said he was one of five children. How did your mother meet him, do you know?

EM: Well, they went to school together I assume, the Nicasio Grammar School. I imagine that was the way. And then they were married in the little church, here in Nicasio.

CE: That church is being restored, is it not?

EM: Yes. All the kids were baptized in that church.

CE: I suppose that's all on record too, isn't it?

EM: Yes, it is.

CE: Probably so. That would probably be in the church records at the County, I presume.

EM: Somewhere, somewhere.

CE: What was your ranch like? Tell us a little bit about the ranch life.

EM: Ranch life? Well, it was lots of work.

CE: Did you have other sisters?

EM: I had one sister.

CE: What was her name?

EM: Imelda. And three brothers. My three brothers helped their father milk the cows and plant the vegetables and so forth.

CE: Is the ranch still in existence or has it been sold and broken up?

EM: Yes. Oh, it's been sold by us. We have no contact.

CE: How long ago did you have to do that?

EM: In 1945 after my father died.

CE: How many milk cows did you have?

EM: Well, I imagine we had about a hundred. And in those days they did not have the milking machines. They milked by hand, fed the cattle.

CE: Did you get involved in that too?

EM: Oh, yes, I always did my little bit. I didn't milk but I --

CE: What else was involved? Did you raise any produce?

EM: Oh yes, we had a nice garden, we had chickens and turkeys.

CE: For your own use or was this for market?

EM: The turkeys were for market, at Christmastime or Thanksgiving time, whatever. And my father had a little route that he took butter and eggs to San Rafael. Had different customers, mostly personal friends.

CE: Your not old enough to have remembered any transportation other than an early auto, I presume. Or do you remember wagon, horse and wagon?

EM: Oh yes, oh yes. I went to Nicasio school in a cart. My sister took me down in the cart.

CE: Tell us about your Mother.

EM: She used to sew all our clothes.

CE: She made all your clothes?

EM: Made all our clothes, every one of them.

CE: Martha, do you remember your grandmother?

MM: No, she died before I was - - I do remember my grandfather.

CE: You do remember your grandfather. What's your impression of your grandfather? Lovable? Strict? Austere?

MM: Oh, I think he had some great stories.

CE: He did?

MM: Well, I think great stories about him, he was quite a figure I think.

CE: Can you share any of those stories, either of you?

MM: I don't know.

EM: I can’t even think of any.

MM: He was very shy but everybody knew him.

CE: Everybody knew him. The school experience for you, is that the school that's now painted red and is owned by a private individual? That was your school.

EM: Yes, that was my school.

CE: Who were some of your classmates? Can you name some of them?

EM: Boyd Stewart. Henry Oddalini. He's gone. Do you happen to know that name?

CE: I just heard it. I don't know the family. Who was your teacher?

EM: Katherine Gallagher. That's an old family here in Nicasio.

CE: Was she a local girl that continued on and taught school here?

EM: Yes.

CE: She came back and taught school here

EM: Her family lived in Nicasio.

CE: Well that's kind of unusual, isn't it?

EM: Yes it is, really is.

CE: Because we've interviewed a few teachers, one that taught at the Olema School, remember, Anne Kent? She lived at the hotel and there were - - -

MM: She was one, too.

CE: You were a teacher?

EM: Yes.

CE: Well, tell us how that came about. First, I want you to think a little bit about your mother. I want you to tell us what your mother gave you and your father in the way of strength, direction. Was your Mother strict?

EM: No, my Mother was very lenient.

CE: Loving?

EM: Very loving, very kind, never said a cross word, very good. I was my Father's pet I think.

CE: Were you the first born?

EM: No, I was the second to the last.

CE: Second to the last? Are your brothers alive?

EM: One brother is.

CE: Is he in ranching, too?

EM: No, he lives in Concord.

CE: Concord. Well your mother sewed all your clothes. She cooked all the meals, I presume. She kept probably the garden, green garden.

EM: Yes, I always said I wanted to be a teacher and she made up her mind I was going to be a teacher, or else.

CE: And how did you achieve that, Ellen?

EM: How did I achieve that? Well, I played school by myself. I had no playmates. There were no playmates close to me at school, or after school. And I would play school.

CE: You mean you'd get the books?

EM: I'd get the books out, set the lessons up for five or six kids around here and we'd have our arithmetic lessons and spelling lessons and so forth.

CE: Your Mother was a very resourceful lady.

EM: Oh, I just had to be a teacher.

CE: When you left this little school where did you go after the Nicasio school?

EM: The San Rafael High School and lived with my Uncle Tom Redding.

CE: Tom Redding. They were a San Rafael family?

EM: San Rafael family. He had a horse stable on Fourth Street.

CE: Oh, Mrs. Kent loves livery stables. Mrs. Kent is crazy about livery stables.

AK: I bring them up all the time.

CE: Where was his livery stable? On Fourth Street?

EM: On Fourth Street, almost opposite the Civic Center, or the County seat. What do you call the building they took down?

CE: Oh, the old Court House?

EM: The old Court house.

CE: I bet he knew old man McPhail then.

EM: Well, I guess he bought it from old man McPhail.

CE: Could have been. I don’t know.

EM: I would almost think he bought it from McPhail. Maybe McPhail had two. McPhail I think had one down B Street or A street.

CE: Well, can you enlighten me? I know Mrs. Kent probably knows the answer, but what were livery stables' function? They would rent horse and wagon or what?

EM: They would rent horses mostly for riding horseback, rent them out for the weekends or Sundays.

CE: You mean sort of like the Hertz Rent-a-Car of its day?

EM: Yes, yes.

CE: I need a horse? I need a tame horse?

EM: Yes. That's how my husband used to come to Nicasio, he would come up on horseback on Friday or Saturday, Saturday afternoon I guess.

CE: When he was courting you?

EM: Yes, and even before. I knew him all my life.

CE: Okay, so you went to San Rafael High School. Were you there when Miss McKinny was teaching?

EM: Elinor Giloghly.

CE: Was she one of your teachers?

EM: Yes, my English teacher all through.

CE: Who were some of your friends, classmates there that you still know? Do you have any -- . Do you keep in touch?

EM: Lillian Johanson. Do you know Lillian?

CE: I know who she is.

EM: And her sister.

CE: Then what was required of you to be a teacher? Did you have to go to Normal School first?

EM: In Normal School for two years.

CE: And where did you do that?

EM: At San Francisco Teachers' Normal School. I lived with an Aunt over in San Francisco. And then I graduated in 1918 and I got my first school over in Novato, or no, it was the Burdell School, a one-room school house.

CE: 1918. Now the war was just - - was the war winding down, World War I? The armistice was that year.

EM: Yes, the armistice was November 11 of that year.

CE: Yes, and you had what? When did you start, in the fall?

EM: In July, July 1918.

CE: Were you terribly nervous about that experience, looking back upon it?

EM: I think maybe I was, yes. I only had, like eight children, one in each grade, maybe skipped a grade. Mostly all one family.

CE: Any of those children's names you recall?

EM: Oh yes. I see them once in a while.

CE: Tell us their names if you would.

EM: The Grossi family.

CE: Grossi family. Well, you might think of some others. Was discipline a hard problem?

EM: No discipline whatsoever. And I rode horseback over the hill. We lived on one side of the hill and the school was on the opposite side of the hill and I rode horseback over the hill and I had saddlebags in which I took my papers. Corrected my papers at night. Put them in one side and my lunch in the other and my riding skirt on over my dress.

CE: Riding skirt over your dress?

EM: Yes. Slipped my riding skirt off and I was all dressed for class.

CE: You were always a lady. Is that school still there?

EM: No, it burnt down I believe, years later. Then there was another school that I, near the four corners in Nicasio that I taught six months there.

CE: Four corners.

AK: What's the name?

EM: Pacheco School.

CE: What was your obligation as the teacher to the parents of the children at that time? Did you have a quarterly accountability to the Board of Trustees, or whatever they called themselves in those days?

EM: Well, we all lived here in Nicasio and it was like one big happy family.

CE: You didn’t have to -- When you were hired for example, were you one of several that was called before a committee? Do you recall?

EM: I don't believe there was a committee or any others applying. In fact, the last school that I mentioned I was asked, begged, to take the class. They couldn't find a teacher. No one would come out I don’t think to teach.

CE: Well, it's interesting you know, some of these stories vary. One teacher we spoke to said they had a-- the parents would come every once in a while, about three times a year, visit, and check up on how things were going, why Donny wasn't doing too well or whatever.

EM: Well, no.

CE: You brought your lunch?

EM: Oh yes.

CE: And your papers. And then what was the-- what were the hours? For instance, describe a day at school. Did you have to get up and do any chores before then?

EM: That was so long ago. Oh no. I was a working girl.

CE: You got up early and left when?

EM: Oh, I imagine around 8:15 in the morning and went over the hill and down.

CE: How long a ride would that be?

EM: Well, it was a good half hour at least or maybe even more.

CE: Was it your own horse?

EM: Oh, yes.

CE: What was the name of your horse?

EM: Bessie.

CE: And how did Bessie amuse herself during class?

EM: Oh I would tie her up to the fence or the tree or whatever was there. CM: Someplace cool.

EM: Someplace cool, yes. And take her saddle off and have some hay there for her and she'd spend the day there very nicely. Was very glad to get some --

CE: The children go out and play with Bessie?

EM: Oh yes, they liked Bessie. I used to play baseball with the children.

CE: You were Physical Education teacher, you were--

EM: Oh, everything.

CE: Counselor, you were--

EM: Oh yes.

CE: Major Domo of each grade.

EM: Yes, Mr. Davidson would come and--

CE: Who was he, the superintendent?

EM: Superintendent of Marin County Schools.

CE: How does one handle a one-room schoolhouse? How do you do that?

EM: Let Martha tell you, she just had a one-room school house.

CE: Was it comparable to your mother's time?

MM: It's out in Chileno Valley and no, it's not comparable, because the children are more modern.

CE: Well, tell me, I mean, how would you start the morning? You'd get there at eight, would you ring the bell?

EM: Oh yes, clank, clank.

CE: Did some of your students help you with some of the chores?

EM: Oh, they'd love to, yes they’d love to. And the boys would form outside the boys' entrance and the girls outside the girls' entrance and march in.

CE: Girls' entrance?

EM: There were two entrances in all these little schools. Did you have two entrances?

CE: Why was that I wonder?

EM: Well, the girls on one side and the boys on another, where they hung their coats and had their lunches.

CE: Oh I see, like a cloakroom.

AK: A door for each.

CE: Alright, then you would walk in the room and they all stand up when you walked in the room or you would be there ahead of time?

EM: Oh yes, I would have been there.

CE: And then they would walk in and then what would happen?

EM: Sit down at their desks. I don't know whether we saluted the flag in those days.

CE: Well, we can talk about the heat, too. I mean, did you have a little pot-bellied stove in the corner?

EM: Yes we did.

CE: In the winter?

EM: Yes, yes. And we were supplied with wood and there was always plenty of paper around to burn, to start the fire, kindling wood. One of the fathers would bring in wood.

CE: Blackboards, chalk and--

EM: Oh yes, yes, and put the Arithmetic on the board for certain ones and something else for someone else.

CE: Well, I'm a little confused. How many students would be there, a dozen?

EM: I don't think I had a dozen at the Burdell.

CE: But each of them would have a different assignment at the same time?

EM: Yes. Yes, that's true. They had their work. They knew what to do when they came in.

CE: And then you'd rotate around and help someone.

EM: Help someone with arithmetic and get them going on something and assign something else for them to do.

CE: And it worked out alright, didn't it?

EM: Oh yes, they did very well.

CE: And they kept quiet more or less?

EM: Oh yes, I think they were afraid to talk.

CE: And I suppose you at that time had the support of the families. You were in charge and the children were--

EM: Yes I was in charge. The parents didn't interfere.

CE: Told to "mind the teacher.”

EM: Yes and they did.

CE: It will be interesting when we talk to your daughter a little later the transition of time. You said you also were involved in ballgames, baseball or recess?

EM: Oh yes, noontime.

CE: You broke for lunch. Did you have a recess first at ten say?

EM: Yes. I think we had fifteen to twenty minutes. Play and get off a little steam, yes. And then noontime we had an hour.

CE: For lunch.

EM: For lunch. And as soon as everybody ate quickly we'd have a game or two.

CE: And then school would last until three?

EM: Yes I believe so, if I remember correctly,

CE: Now would children also sometimes come by horseback?

EM: No I can't remember any horses.

CE: They were close enough to walk or being dropped off?

EM: I think they were dropped off and picked up in the afternoon. Mothers or fathers mostly, I guess. There were no automobiles then.

CE: Any after school discipline?

EM: Discipline, no. Nobody punished for too much talking, or having to write anything a hundred times.

CE: But things like vandalism?

EM: Oh, nothing like that.

CE: Were not known at that time.

EM: No.

CE: Did you feel, as most teachers do, a sense of creativeness in guiding young people?

EM: Oh, I loved teaching.

CE: And had that reward of watching them progress?

EM: Yes.

CE: Any of your students turn out to be-- Were any of them bright?

EM: No. Well I guess they were bright enough. They all settled on the ranches and they are well-to-do today.

CE: All settled on ranches.

EM: Successful farmers.

EM: Successful farmers, very successful. Have their wives and families and--

CE: It was interesting to us to meet Josepha and Boyd Stewart and get to know them. He has been helpful in directing us to a lot of West Marin families to share the story and--Were you at Josepha's service?

EM: No. Is that his wife? I never met her.

CE: Oh you didn’t know her.

EM: I never knew her.

CE: She was a wonderful woman.

EM: See I lived in Los Angeles all those years.

CE: That's right. Well, we've got to get back to you, get you-- You taught then from 1918 for a few years, maybe two or three?

EM: Well, I taught, you know, at Burdell for a year and then I stayed home for two years to help my mother. She had broken her arm and was not well, so I stayed at home to help her. Then we decided we would move to San Rafael and my brother took over management of the ranch and my other brother and I and Mother and Dad moved to San Rafael.

CE: Where did you live there?

EM: On Lincoln Avenue.

CE: On Lincoln Avenue.

EM: I forget the cross street.

CE: Did you miss the ranch?

EM: No, not really. I was glad to get into town. I went out to St. Vincent's and taught out there for the first six months that St Vincent's was a public school.

CE: Are we talking about the orphanage?

EM: Yes.

CE: There's a wonderful book, A Hundred Years an Orphan about that school. Have you read it?

EM: No, I haven't.

CE: You ought to read that. One of the Fathers there wrote it. We've got to get you married now. How did that come about? While you were living in San Rafael?

EM: Living in San Rafael. I taught two and a half years at St. Vincent's and then I gave up and moved to Fourth Street Grammar School, taught there.

CE: Oh you did teach at the Fourth. Did you find that quite a change from the one room school house?

EM: Yes. Oh yes.

CE: Did you have one class?

EM: Yes, the fifth grade. As I recall I only had about twenty six or seven, a small class. I taught in the building that has been torn down. Do you recall?

CE: Where was it located?

EM: Fourth and E.

CE: Oh yes, sure.

EM: I was in it when it opened and that winter the rain came pouring down and we had to put buckets at the end of the chalk tray to catch the water. So when school closed in June they closed it and--

CE: What year are we up to now about? We're up to the twenties.

EM: Twenties, oh yes, twenty five, twenty six.

CE: 1925. And tell us how you met your husband, a little bit about him. What's his name?

EM: Joe.

CE: Joe? Joseph.

EM: Joseph. I really knew him all my life.

CE: Joseph McNeil. And he's a San Francisco family?

EM: Yes.

CE: And he used to come out here you said on horseback?

EM: Well, yes, when he grew up.

CE: But he loved this area?

EM: Yes, he loved this area, dearly loved it. He worked for Schmidt Lithograph Company.

CE: Still going strong at the foot of the Bay Bridge in San Francisco.

EM: Yes that's right.

CE: Used to pass it every day on my way to Treasure Island. Very, very well known, regarded firm. In this catalog of the Bancroft Library they have their story, too.

EM: It's owned by ? I think now.

CE: Well what year were you married?

EM: 1928.

CE: 1928. And then what happened? Did you--

EM: A year before that he was transferred to Los Angeles, the Los Angeles office of Schmidt Lithograph. That's how we moved.

CE: So that took you away from Marin County to L.A. Then you were there for fifty years?

EM: Yes.

CE: Until when? Let’s see, fifty, 1978?

EM: Well, we were in this house three years.

CE: Fifty years in Los Angeles. Did you miss this area?

EM: Not really.

CE: You were adaptable. Where did you live in Los Angeles? Gosh, that's a big place. Were the girls born there?

EM: Yes, yes. My two daughters and two sons.

CE: Now what are your children's names? You have Martha.

EM: Martha, Mary Ellen, Joe and Larry.

CE: Any of the other children in this area?

EM: No. Just Martha. Mary Ellen lives in Illinois. Where did we live in Los Angeles?

MM: In Los Angeles, not in the downtown area, near La Brea tar pits.

CE: Would you come back here on vacations?

EM: Yes we would.

CE: Where's the ranch? Where abouts, are we near the ranch?

EM: Which ranch?

CE: The one of your father's.

EM: My father’s ranch? The Redding ranch. We’re sitting on it. This is the Redding Ranch, this is part of it.

CE: And where does it go, up Lucas Valley?

EM: It goes up Lucas Valley about a quarter of a mile into the redwoods.

MM: And it goes all the way past the church.

CE: How many acres was it?

MM: Five hundred and sixty acres.

CE: Did you save this little piece or just repurchased it?

EM: No, it was my inheritance. The rest of my family sold their share.

CE: You were smart

EM: I was, I think.

CE: Well you were a teacher. You didn't sit around that dining room table for those formative years for nothing did she, Anne?

EM: Arithmetic lessons.

CE: We find that your daughter Martha is also a teacher and she probably comes home and told you stories of her classes.

EM: Oh yes.

CE: In listening to that, her stories, and in just reading what you must have been reading over the last two decades of what's happening to education, would you care to comment at all about how it's changed and--

EM: Well I don't know. I taught, substituted in Los Angeles for a few years and that was very difficult. Quite different from--

CE: Well, as the years roll by, I mean, discipline kind of eroded, didn't it?

EM: It did.

CE: And the teacher was not supported by the family nor sometimes by the administration.

EM: That's true.

CE: But I'm interested too in Martha's impression, too. We went through a terrible decade of the sixties from the university level down to every school. Don't you think the pendulum is swinging back to--

EM: I hope so.

MM: It's swinging back to more structured class.

CE: Yes, and not quite the permissiveness or all these strange courses. And they're getting back to basis, aren't they?

MM: Yes, oh yes. But I think the respect has to return, respect for older people or for people.

EM: And for teachers.

CE: Ellen, backing up a minute, I think we want to clarify the fact that your daughter reminded us, you were born in Nicasio.

EM: Yes.

CE: And where?

EM: In the square. Not in the square but where my family lived.

CE: Your family home was right on the square?

EM: I lived on the square, yes.

CE: Where in relationship to the church? Opposite?

EM: Opposite the church.

CE: Is that house still standing?

EM: No, it hasn't stood for a number of years.

MM: Next to the little red building, the house was next to a little red building which we called the Butcher Shop.

CE: I see. And was the church an important part in your family's lives?

EM: Oh yes.

CE: You were Catholic?

EM: Oh yes, all of us are Catholic. We were all baptized in the Church. My mother and father were married in the Church, in that church. I was married in that church. I believe I was the only one in the family that was married in the church, my sister was married elsewhere.

CE: Who married you, do you remember?

EM: Yes, Father Leo Taeyarets.

CE: Who was in your wedding party?

EM: Oh my goodness they're all dead. My sister-in-law.

CE: Did you have a traditional wedding?

EM: We had a traditional wedding, yes.

CE: And you crossed the square to your home?

EM: We didn't live there then. We lived in San Rafael at that time and we came out here to be married. I came out here to be married.

CE: You wanted to be married. And was that your desire?

EM: My desire, yes.

CE: And what year was that again?

EM: 1928. My husband's sister was married and lived in a house which burnt down later, several years after our wedding, and my husband stayed there before the wedding and I was in San Rafael with my parents and then we drove out that morning.

CE: Some of the neighboring ranchers attend?

EM: It was mostly family, I believe. Mostly family.

MM: Who played the organ?

EM: Nel McIsaac I believe,

CE: Nellie McIsaac?

EM: Yes, do you know Nellie?

CE: We had the pleasure of talking with her, yes, before she was gone. Wonderful gal.

EM: Yes, and I believe Sam Mazza was the altar boy, grown man with a family. He was a local.

CE: What do you know about the restoration of that church?

EM: Last year?

CE: Yes. Can you tell us how that came about? Mrs. Kent and I remember going to a Marin County Historical dinner and they were-- A woman spoke about the need of funding. I don't recall her name but they wanted very much to restore that.

EM: I believe that was the day we were there. Was that the day just before Christmas?

CE: Yes, were you there that day?

EM: We were there that night.

CE: Good. Did all the local people come through with some contributions? Is that how that came about?

EM: For the auction for the church? Oh yes, people were very generous. And we had the auction at Mr. Dexter's.

CE: That's right across the road here.

EM: Right across the road. It was a very wet, rainy Sunday and later we decided it was a good thing it was such a wet and rainy Sunday because we didn’t know what we would have done with the people that would have come if it had been a sunny day.

CE: You mean there was such a response?

EM: Such a response.

AK: I was there.

EM: Oh were you there that day? And you walk very far?

AK: We parked so far away and then we finally hitched a ride from the gateway.

CE: Mrs. Kent's granddaughter is a friend of their daughter. Well, is it all finished now?

EM: Yes, yes, it's all finished and it's really very beautiful.

CE: Do you go there, do you attend the services?

EM: Oh yes we attend service every Sunday. The Father comes from Lagunitas, Father Monahan.

CE: Father Monahan. Could you tell me how old that church might be?

EM: It's over a hundred years, built in 1867.

CE: Just after the Civil War.

EM: A hundred and thirteen years now.

CE: Is it on the Historical Landmark list, I wonder? Probably will be some day, because now that it has been restored. Do you remember the hotel around the square?

EM: Yes, I do.

CE: What can you tell us about it? Was that built by the Miller family?

EM: Yes.

CE: And what did you come into, the large entrance hall?

CE: Entrance hall.

CE: Entrance hall, registration desk?

EM: Yes, and then right was a little sort of a reception room. People would go in there and sit. There was soft seats in there like a hotel lobby, I guess. And then a stairway going upstairs.

CE: Rather imposing I imagine.

EM: Yes. And then of course downstairs was the dining room and kitchen.

CE: Bar?

EM: Oh yes, the bar was to the left near the front door, which was opened to the public.

CE: Imposing bar, mahogany and all that or oak, lots of glass? Ornate?

EM: Yes, yes. And I think there was a slot machine in there, which my mother used to love to play. That was a little relaxation for her I think.

CE: Excitement in the square.

EM: Excitement in the square.

CE: And the hotel was destroyed by fire.

EM: Yes by fire. I believe that was during a storm also. I wasn't living here at the time. The store also burnt during the storm. The store and Druids Hall.

CE: And Druids Hall?

EM: Druids Hall was upstairs. There is a Druids Hall now, that old building.

CE: In Olema or here?

EM: In Nicasio

CE: Martha, you mentioned earlier that you were also in teaching, and did you follow that interest because of your Mother perhaps?

MM: I think so, I think that was always--

CE: She was anxious that you--

MM: No, she taught school while I was in high school also.

CE: In Los Angeles after the family moved down there.

MM: I enjoyed children.

CE: Where did you go to high school?

MM: I went in Los Angeles. The name of the school is Immaculate Heart.

CE: Immaculate Heart. You went to Catholic school?

MM: Yes.

CE: Did you have a higher education from high school?

MM: Yes, I went to college.

CE: Where?

MM: Immaculate Heart College and SC.

CE: Oh good. Are you familiar with the Dominican College up here in Marin County?

MM: Not really.

CE: Well, then you started to teach. And what did you notice, after listening to your mother's experience, what was different for you, the size of the classes?

MM: The size of the classes, very large classes. It started off with medium size classes and ended up with very large classes as the neighborhoods changed.

CE: What grades are you involved with?

MM: I'm a primary teacher, first, second, third, kindergarten. I noticed that children don't really respond to, respect or, you know, their listening habits are very poor because of our modern-- Their attention span is short.

CE: But as we were discussing earlier, from that ideal time of your mother's teaching there was no disciplinary problems and the families were supportive to the teachers and the school system was and then we went through that reverse process where you didn't get any support from the family in discipline, particularly in the sixties. Don't you think the pendulum is swinging back?

MM: I hope so.

CE: And the return to the basics in education?

MM: Yes, very much so. Structured classes and situations.

CE: Well, they found out, didn't they, that they really produced?

MM: Yes, test scores and --

CE: Test scores and everything. I think we'll have to repeat, because the tape went dead, how you came back here three years ago. Seventy-eight did you say, around in there? Ellen, this was part of the Redding Ranch?

EM: This is part of the Redding Ranch, yes.

CE: And you were able to get this little piece and restore this house. And tell us about the house again, Martha, if you would. This house you restored beautifully and it was standing where again?

MM: We moved it from the ranch that is across from the Redding Ranch. It's the other side of Nicasio. As you're going to Nicasio, it's on the left. And they were taking down all the ranch buildings and they were going to take down the house and at that time we were able to get this piece of property so we asked if we could move the house over to this spot.

CE: That was quite an undertaking wasn't it? Did you get house movers?

MM: Yes, we had house movers. It came down the road and, it is a very, very small house and we added to it and--

CE: A little later we'd like to tour around the house and, if you would, talk about it on the tape it would be an interesting vignette. I think it's wonderful that people like yourselves have restored something of history and I think of course it's tremendous what your community has done to restore St. Mary's Church. And this pamphlet that you've brought out that was published for this auction in 1979 for the restoration of St. Mary's Church in Nicasio is a beautifully done little historical pamphlet. And I was delighted to see, as you pointed out, here's the family home, Ellen, your parents’ home, right on the square.

EM: Yes, my mother and myself.

CE: And you're right there at the doorway. And next door is the butcher shop and there's a horse and wagon. Mrs. Kent, did you--

AK: Well, I see, it's wonderful too because there's a whole list of these people, some of whom we have interviewed and now we know the names of many people who lived here.

CE: These pages are not numbered. There's a photograph below the Redding home of your wedding party on August 9, 1928 and there's Nellie McIsaac you said.

EM: Yes.

CE: And you're standing not-- Well, you must be standing in the square because behind is the hotel.

EM: Well, behind was the hotel but the church was right over here. We were just down from the church.

CE: Would you repeat once more, you were baptized in that church. Your parents were married in that church?

EM: Parents were married in that church in 1889.

CE: And you were married in the church.

EM: And I was married in that church in 1928. And all the kids were baptized in the church.

CE: Any of your children married in the church?

EM: No, they were all married elsewhere.

CE: Now, there's a photograph in the beginning here. That’s the barn.

EM: That's the barn. It's quite overgrown.

CE: And whose barn is that? Is that your barn?

EM: No, no. I don't know who owns it now but Wakes owned it. There's the hotel.

CE: There's a photograph of the hotel.

EM: See, one, two, three stories. And you see here is the door. This was the sort of the parlor.

CE: Did you ever here the name of General Henry Halleck mentioned in your family?

EM: Yes, I think so.

CE: He had some interest in land out here, did he not?

EM: Yes. Murray Ranch was purchased--

CE: Part of the Halleck Ranch. Then he later became a general in the Civil War, of course.

EM: This is an aerial view. There's the hotel.

CE: Yes, And here's an early photo of the church showing the hitching post. You just walked out the front door and across the square and you were in church.

EM: Yes.

CE: Are any of these photographs in your possession?

EM: Yes.

CE: Most of them?

EM: Well, quite a few.

MM: A third of them. Mrs. Rogers and our first cousins--

EM: This is my fathers' sister, this lady.

MM: And there are twelve children in the family so Rogers are very prominent in Nicasio and Olema.

CE: I see.

MM: These are classes, a lot of these. 1934 photos. These children are farmers now.

CE: Is there still a lot of dairy ranching going on or is--

MM: There are only three ranches here in Nicasio that are still dairy.

CE: Any other kind of ranching going on or farming?

MM: Just grazing and horses, of course.

CE: Here's the Village Blacksmith Shop, do you remember that Ellen?

EM: Yes, I believe this is the one that was up by-- Is this the yellow house next to the square? And this is the General Store which burnt and you see the Druids Hall was upstairs.

CE: Yes, I see that

EM: The Post Office was in there, too.

MM: This house is still there but they remodeled it and raised it off the ground. It was built right on the ground. That's where Mary La Franchi lives, she would be somebody to interview.

CE: Well you might tell her about our project and if she’d like to share her reminiscences it would be very -- Where we are and as you call it your inheritance, Ellen, how many acres did you get?

EM: I have 120, more or less.

CE: More or less. And then what do you do other than like your immediate environs where the home is?

EM: It is all rented; the whole rest of the ranch is all rented.

CE: For grazing?

EM: For grazing.

CE: What do they graze here, beef cattle? Dairy cattle?

EM: Dairy cattle.

CE: Oh they do.

EM: Heifers, before they're grown up.

CE: It would be very nice if you and Martha would kind of tell us about the restoration of this interesting property. The kitchen, we're seated right next to the kitchen and around a beautiful old table with oak chairs and kind of interesting seats. They're sort of woven. But all the modern conveniences here, skylights, deep-set skylight, and copper hood over the electric range, little white porcelain knobs and natural wood, and natural wood flooring and light counter. It's a knockout. And this wallpaper looks like it came from Holland. Looks like you've utilized some interesting -- Is this all wood?

MM: That wood was from the dairy, a building that was falling down, and it was the inside.

CE: Yes, it looks old and wonderful.

MM: Redwood, tongue and groove --

CE: And you say a carpenter did this? This is your design? Working with him?

MM: Yes, he was a very clever carpenter.

CE: You told what you'd like?

MM: Yes. He restored another house on Nicasio Valley Road.

CE: And we've moved into the living room and -- This is so very comfortable and you have so many interesting paintings. Would you care to describe some of them?

MM: Well, most of these paintings are by my father. He was very artistic and he loved Nicasio because he used to come from the city and so his memories as a child were all upstairs and he would paint pictures of the square or --

CE: What year was your Father born?

MM: 1898. And he just loved San Francisco, too. He has pictures of ferry boats and --

CE: Well, I see there's a lovely oil painting of the church and beside it is a barn.

EM: That's the barn from the Redding Ranch.

CE: And then below it is the ferry boat.

EM: Yes.

CE: Now on the far wall it looks like the back of St. Mary's Church from the hill. Would that be from the Redding Ranch looking down?

EM: Yes, from the Redding Ranch looking down.

CE: And on the other wall is another view of the St. Mary's Church from the back. And then he has done one of the original school house that was done in red? Is that --

EM: Yes that's the school house, yes.

CE: And then the hotel. Now had your father seen the hotel?

EM: Oh yes, yes. His uncle owned the hotel.

CE: Oh, that's right. You keep telling me that. And then over the fireplace, which is a beautiful fireplace, brick, and I love this tongue and groove wood that you have on the bias there. Is that the general store?

EM: Yes.

CE: He really was very, very good.

MM: Well, he appreciated things.

CE: Isn't that great to have something of your father. Explain what this massive square, it looks like a telephone booth, made of oak that’s standing in the living room.

MM: It's a wardrobe closet that's hiding a television set and a record player, the hi-fi.

CE: Isn't that great? And that roll top desk, beside it, is that an old piece in your family?

EM: No, it's not so old. My husband acquired that just a few years back from a friend of his. [poor audio quality from tape]

CE: Did you have this house insulated?

EM: Yes, yes.

CE: So you were way ahead of --

MM: The clock is a purchase of Mom's --

CE: That one that chimes there?

MM: Yes.

CE: And on the table, is that a table model --

MM: That's an old sewing machine. With the birds on top are something my mother's mother won when she was --

EM: Over a hundred years ago.

CE: Do they play?

EM: No.

MM: It’s a still life.

CE: Is that a restored door or is that an old door?

MM: It's an old door. Many of the doors in the other part of the house are from the original house; we took all the paint off.

CE: Do you have two bedrooms here? And there's an upstairs?

CE: This house, it's been beautifully restored. You mentioned in passing that you had a door from San Quentin? Tell us about it, Martha.

MM: Well, the door that was on the house originally was in bad shape so we had to find another front door, since we've always -- Think a glass in the front is nice and an old redwood door, so we happened to be just down at the San Quentin Durnp looking for windows for this house and on top of the pile was this lovely door and the man charged us ten dollars for it. And it's a beautiful door; we had to have it redone.

CE: Dumps are fascinating places to go to. My houseboat was near a dump in Larkspur and you'd always go down with something and come back with more.

MM: Yes, we were very lucky.

CE: Let's talk about your mother a little bit. If I remember correctly you said she was born here in Nicasio and she was Ellen Murray; you're named for her. Now, I'm a little confused about the Murray, Redding Ranches. We're on the Redding Ranch now and then as Martha explained you moved over to the Murray Ranch in Nicasio on the main square?

MM: No, that was Murray property and then they moved from there to the Murray Ranch two miles away --

EM: In 1904.

CE: I see, in 1904. Was your mother -- At the time of your mother's childhood did she ever hear talk of any Indians or even seen one, Miwoks?

EM: Yes. She used to tell us tales of the Indians; they were about a quarter of a mile from the house where they lived --

CE: From the Rancherio?

EM: Of the Rancherio.

CE: A quarter of a mile west? We're talking about the house on the square now?

EM: No, the Murray Ranch.

CE: Did she see them in the town ever or would they come in for supplies, did your mother say?

EM: Well, they used to go over and my grandfather would give them a sack of flour or a sack of whatever he had bought for his own ranch. They would come in regularly for milk. One Indian had his arm off above the elbow I think it was and he would tell me of them. That's about all I remember.

CE: Were they feared?

EM: No, they were kindly.

CE: What school did your mother go to?

EM: Nicasio School.

CE: That school itself was sold to a retired army officer?

EM: The same one that worked the county I believe.

CE: The county wasn't interested in preserving it as a school?

EM: No, I guess not.

CE: Have you been in the house since it's been restored?

EM: No.

MM: It's suppose to be quite nice. Rooms are partitioned off but the partitions don't go all the way to the ceiling.

CE: Mrs. Kent and I interviewed Rose Briones who lives in the old schoolhouse at Woodville. Well, Dogtown or Woodville, whichever you want to call it, and she had gone to that schoolhouse as a youngster and somehow it was in their family property and it later was converted to a residence, but it's a charming thing. When we talked to her, here she is 96 and living in this one grand size room. They made a little sort of partition of the cloakroom and another part they used as a kitchen. And she can reminisce and say that I used to stand in that corner when I was naughty. And I said, “what could you have ever done to be naughty?” "I used to throw little spitballs." But these old buildings, and there are so few of them, it seems rather recently have people have become conscious of preserving them, wouldn't you agree?

EM: Yes.

CE: They went through decades of neglect and disrepair and suddenly now there is a, late as it is, there is an interest in preservation. So if a man bought it and then painted it red, I think at least it was kept a school building alive. There are a lot of names here. Any of the old families, descendants, around just as you are? In the town or in the neighboring ranches? You mentioned the Tomasini family, are they still around?

EM: The younger generation, not the old.

CE: No, I mean the descendants.

EM: The descendants, yes, yes.

CE: Now you mentioned someone you thought we should interview and who was that again? Out here? You mentioned a name of somebody?

MM: Mary La Franchi. They used to own the store.

CE: Did the store do much on credit do you recall?

EM: I think it was mostly cash. Mostly cash I think because the farmers all bought in quantity. They would kill their own beef and their own chickens and their own hogs. Make their own sausage, have their own butter. The wives would make their own bread, raise chickens and have their own eggs You wouldn't have to buy that much.

CE: No, just buy some cloth, maybe kerosene or --

EM: Something like that. And kerosene I think they would have (noise on tape) --

CE: Do you remember the store?

EM: Oh yes.

CE: What did they sell in there? You didn't have to buy much. What would you see on display there? Bolts of fabric?

EM: Bolts of fabric and we had a candy counter, which I remember well, and --

CE: Did they sell any horse tacking or that stuff, or saddles, or --

EM: Oh I don't believe so, no I think it was --

CE: Would they sell some of the staples like coffee, sugar?

EM: I don't remember that.

CE: You'd have to buy that somewhere, wouldn't you?

EM: Yes, you'd have to go into towns and buy a hundred pounds of coffee --

CE: Then they would never buy just a pound of anything?

EM: Oh no, not for the ranches. They'd use that almost for breakfast if they did that.

CE: Getting back to this Redding Ranch, in addition to the children how many were there?

EM: Oh, about five.

CE: Would you need any other help?

EM: Yes, my father always had hired help. They came from ?; there were Italians. He would phone an employment agency in San Francisco. Murray and Reddy was it?

CE: And he'd say, I need so and so?

EM: I need a milker and he'd get someone that had just arrived and applied, you know application.

CE: Well, would they -- How would you put them up?

EM: Oh, a little bunkhouse.

CE: Bunkhouse?

EM: Yes with beds. When they would eat at the table, we all ate together.

CE: Was it your mother's responsibility to prepare meals for all hands?

EM: Prepare all the meals for all the hands.

CE: How many would sit down?

EM: Well, there were seven with my mother and father and there were always at least three hands, ten. They were up at three o'clock in the morning and they had good healthy appetites by six or six thirty whenever breakfast was ready.

CE: They would -- I'm missing something. They'd go out and milk the cows first and then have breakfast?

EM: They get up early. Have breakfast afterwards, yes, at six thirty or seven.

CE: Then would they be more or less free the rest of the day until milking time?

EM: No, there were fences to fix, work to do, roads to repair, whatever needed, a nail here and a nail there.

CE: Your father was the boss?

EM: He was the boss and he would tell them what to do. I think there was a little rest in the afternoon before they'd start to milk in the afternoon, after lunch maybe.

CE: And that was later; three?

EM: Yes, they'd start about three. They try to milk the cows at, say, four in the morning and then start again at four in the afternoon; twelve hours between.

CE: Do you miss this life?

EM: The cow bit?

CE: Yes. Do you miss it?

EM: No, no, I never missed it. I had enough of it.

CE: Well, it's been perfectly delightful to meet with you this afternoon, Ellen.

EM: Thank you

CE: And your daughter, Martha. It's given me a closer glimpse into Nicasio life and we are very appreciative. Thank you.