ORAL HISTORY PROJECT OF THE MARIN COUNTY FREE LIBRARY Anne T. Kent California Room Original recording available at the Anne T. Kent California Room © All materials copyright Marin County Free Library. Transcript made available for research purposes only. All rights are reserved to the Marin County Free Library. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the: Anne T. Kent California Room Marin County Free Library 3501 Civic Center Dr. #427 San Rafael, California, 94903

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INTERVIEW WITH AILEEN ZIEGLER
by Carla Ehat & Anne Kent
June 4, 1980

INTERVIEWEE: Aileen Ziegler (AZ)
INTERVIEWERS: Carla Ehat (CE) and Anne Kent (AK)
DATE OF INTERVIEW: June 4, 1980
TRANSCRIBER: Marjorie Hoffman

CE: Today is Wednesday June 4, 1980. We are at the residence of Mrs. Thomas Kent and this morning we are going to have the pleasure of talking with Aileen Herzog Ziegler. Mrs. Harry Ziegler resides at 61 Via Belardo in Greenbrae, California and this morning she is going to tell us about her family. It's nice to have you with us this morning.

AZ: What would you like to know, dear?

CE: Well, we were talking a little earlier about your grandparents. Now, I understand you're the granddaughter of Maximillian Herzog, who came from Germany and is listed in the 1869 San Francisco Directory. Tell us a little bit about your grandparents.

AZ: Well, he was born in 1846 in Neider Saulheim, Germany -

CE: Near Frankfurt?

AZ: Yes, near Frankfurt on the Rhine. Wiesbaden is a bigger city closer to it. Now I see, he left Germany at an early age to avoid conscription in the army around the time of the Franco-Prussian War. Tradition says he came by the Horn, by ship, in 1863, to San Francisco.

CE: In 1863.

AZ: But he probably first landed in New York. His voter's registration lists him as the Twelfth Ward, San Francisco, age 25, from Germany.

CE: Well, what was his heritage? Was his family in agriculture?

AZ: Yes, his family was in agriculture, mines, and cattle. |

CE: All right, now -

AZ: He married Augusta Kramer who was also from Germany. What date were they married?

CE: That's all right. That's probably on record. What did he do in San Francisco?

AZ: When he first arrived, he was a waiter, and later on he became a butcher, and then when he became ill -

CE: What do you mean he became ill? Is that what brought him to Marin?

AZ: The asthma, chronic asthma. He had a chronic asthma condition and was advised to move to Marin for health reasons.

CE: And that took place when?

AZ: Then he moved to San Rafael, and he bought a small house on the southwest corner of Third and D Street for five hundred and twenty dollars in gold.

CE: Well, all those early transactions - Mrs. Kent and I are just baffled. They were all in gold coins, weren't they, Anne?

AK: Yes.

CE: Well, that was in 1878, you told me earlier?

AZ: Yes, that's right. The last three of his children were born at that house. The last three of Max - Max Herzog had seven children. My father was only about -

CE: Your father was Siegfried?

AZ: Yes, he was about the fourth one.

CE: The fourth one down the line.

AZ: Yes. And the last three were born in San Rafael. My father was born in San Francisco.

CE: Now Aileen, I have an October 1887 edition of the Marin County Journal and amongst the advertisements in the back is one of your grandfather's businesses: "M. Herzog and Company, wholesale and retail dealers in all kinds of American meats. New San Rafael Market. Beef, veal, lamb and mutton, ham, bacon, etc." It was at the corner of Fourth and C Streets. Do you remember?

AZ No, that was before my time. I remember it as it is now on B Street, in the middle of the block between Third and Fourth. It's still there; the building is still there. It's no butcher shop, a little coffee shop there. My father ran that butcher shop for many years that I can remember.

CE: It was on B between what?

AZ: On B Street between Third and Fourth. We still own the building.

CE: Did he build the building, your grandfather?

AZ: Well my father did. I guess they owned it together. But now the family still owns that building. It looks like it's going to fall down any minute but it's going to be painted again.

AK: They're well built.

CE: All right, now I noticed you brought us today a lovely photograph of your parents' home, also some newsprint from the Independent Journal of April 30, 1977 of your grandfather's house.

AZ: Yes.

CE: And it's a Victorian home at 828 Mission Street.

AZ: I'll tell you a little bit about that. My grandfather purchased that house from Mayor McCarthy, who was the first chosen Mayor out of the Board of Trustees in San Rafael, and then later my grandfather was elected to the first Board of Trustees and Mayor McCarthy was chosen there at the first meeting, following the election, and that was in 1893. I have that here. Shortly after, he purchased that house that belonged to Mayor McCarthy at 828 Mission Street. At the time this was written, it was owned by a Mrs. Betty Ford. I don't know if she still owns it or not.

CE: Well is this the building that has been converted to law offices?

AZ: Yes. The last I know it was owned by -

CE: It's probably on the list of historic houses, then.

AZ: It was supposed to be amongst the first to have central heating. Isn't that funny? And a lath house in the back for entertaining, and a stable for horses. And the 1906 earthquake, the only damage done by that was done by bricks from the chimney toppling on the roof through the bedroom, but no one was hurt.

CE: Was your father and his brothers and sisters born in that home?

AZ: No, this they didn't purchase until 1880. My father was already born.

CE: I see.

AZ: My father was born in San Francisco. I really don't know where. I don't think that's in here.

CE: Well now let's get up to your parents. Your father was Siegfried. Who did your father marry?

AZ: Rebecca Lobree.

CE: Was she a Marin lady?

AZ: No, San Francisco. She was born in Oregon but she moved to San Francisco.

CE: How do you spell her name?

AZ: L-o-b-r-e-e. I don't have very much on that side of the family.

CE: Now you have brought us a photograph, also, of your parents' home. Would you locate the site for us today?

AZ: It's on the corner of Court and Fifth Street.

CE: Where Bell Savings and Loan is today.

AZ: Where Bell Savings and Loan is. My father built that for my mother before they were married. It's the only house they ever lived in. They lived in it for over fifty years.

CE: And there's a handsome gentleman with a white mustache and goatee. Is that your grandfather?

AZ: That's my grandfather. They lived with us about eighteen years. They left that house, that big Victorian house, for they had no more children home and my father insisted on their coming to live with us. I grew up with grandparents all my life.

CE: That's a rich experience. Wouldn't you say that's a rich experience?

AZ: Yes, that's why I know as much as I do today.

CE: That's a lovely home.

AZ: Well, we thought so. We had a lot of happy times in it. We sold it because nobody wanted to live in it, and it was so close to Fourth Street, it was so commercial, and that was -

CE: It was getting more and more commercial.

AZ: Yes, and that was in - after my mother died, and that was about - Oh, I guess she died in 1958, so we sold it after that. Nobody wanted to live that close. We all had our own homes.

CE: Were you born in that house?

AZ: All four of us were. Isn't that amazing?

CE: Tell us the names of your brothers and sisters.

AZ: I'm the oldest, and then Max, whom I -

CE: You were born July 24, 1904.

AZ: Yes. And then Max was born on June 17th, four years later. What would that be? Do you want me to point this out now?

CE: The other children, just the other members of your family.

AZ: Well the only one that's in this picture, that's me and that's my brother Max.

CE: Well, you said there were four children.

AZ: They weren't born yet when this picture was taken. Then comes Leta. You must know her, I think, from Art and Garden: Rosenbaum?

CE: Yes.

AZ: And then Siegfried, Jr. They're not in the picture; they weren't born yet. I thought there was a date in back of that. No there isn't.

CE: You should try to find a date on that.

AZ: Oh, I could tell approximately because my mother looks pregnant there with Leta, or with -

CE: What year is that then?

AZ: Fifty nine years ago, or sixty eight years ago, what would that be?

CE: 1902.

AZ: Oh no, no later than that. I was born in 1904 and Max about 1908.

CE: Oh excuse me, 1912.

AZ: Yes. Because I think Siegfried was born in 1913. That's right.

CE: All right, let's get back to you a moment. You were born there and you had this huge house.

AZ: Well, we needed it with four children and grandparents.

CE: It looks like a tremendous lot with fruit trees and everything, lovely garden.

AZ: It was mostly occupied by the house. As you can see, there wasn't much land around it.

CE: You were very close to the Eldridge Cushing family, weren't you? Across the road?

AZ: No. Where was that?

CE: Well that was on Fourth Street. Dolly Cushing.

AZ: Oh, on Fourth, no.

CE: You don't recall that. All right, their house backed into this area. Did you know the Eden family?

AZ: Oh, my oldest friends, Doris and Gretchen, right across the street. I mean, they really are my oldest friends, all my life. I don't know if they were born there, but -

CE: I think so, when I talked with them. Where did you go to school?

AZ: I went to San Rafael Elementary School through grammar school, and then because of my hearing defect, my parents decided to send me to private school, so I went to Miss Hamlin's for four years and that really prepared me for college.

CE: Were you there when Miss Hamlin was running the school?

AZ: Oh yes, yes, the original Sarah Dix Hamlin School.

CE: We'll have to talk to you about that another time. And then Miss Stanwood came into the picture, or was she there -

AZ: She came afterwards. Miss Hamlin was still there.

CE: Where was the school then on Van Ness?

AZ: On Pacific Avenue.

CE: All right, now let's get to your father, Siegfried. I understand you brought some photographs of the Sleepy Hollow Dairy Ranch.

AZ: Yes.

CE: Sixteen-hundred-acre ranch at the end of Sleepy Hollow. Now that property we always think of as the Hotaling property.

AZ: It was owned by Hotaling.

CE: And it was your father though that started the ranch there?

AZ: As far as I know. I don't know if anyone had a dairy there before he did. I really don't know.

CE: It seems, we were talking to someone - Mrs. Kent, was it Codoni who said it was one of the first certified dairy ranches in the west?

AZ: I know it was.

CE: They were ahead of their time as far as -

AZ: In 1906 he leased the sixteen-acre dairy at Sleepy Hollow, becoming the first local dairyman to market certified milk. Local doesn't mean California, does it?

CE: Well according to Codoni, he was tops in the State of California.

AZ: Are you talking about Mario Codoni? That's the one who lived next door.

CE: Yes, that's right. How many dairy cattle were there on that ranch that they milked? Do you have any idea?

AZ: No, I haven't. My brother could tell you that. He practically grew up on that ranch out there. That's why, today, he owns a ranch out at Black Point: the Sleepy Hollow Dairy at Black Point. They market milk, but it's no longer certified because the State of California changed the laws that all milk had to be pasteurized, so there was no advantage for certified milk.

CE: I see, I see.

AZ: So there is no certified milk anymore in the state.

CE: You have also brought photographs of yourself as a youngster; you and your brother out at the ranch.

AZ: Yes, that's Max.

CE: It's a huge place. Look at that milking barn, the size of it.

AK: I knew it.

AZ: I think they used that - In recent years it was used for a riding academy, but it is gone now.

CE: What are your memories of the dairy ranch, as a youngster growing up?

AZ: I have very happy memories of my childhood out there.

CE: Would you go out there in the summer?

AZ: All summer we stayed out there. There was a wooded area where we had a campground where we had tents with platforms and a dining room on platform, and there must have been running water. I don't remember that. As I said, we spent most of our summers out there when I was a child, and Max would stay out there all the time with the manager. I used to say he was practically born in the saddle.

CE: Did you ride? Did you go out there and ride?

AZ: Oh yes, I rode out there. I rode for many years.

CE: How would you get out there?

AZ: Horse and buggy. How else?

CE: Well I know you were born in 1904, but did you have, on the Fifth Avenue property, did you have your rig there in the barn?

AZ: I don't think so. We kept it up, if I remember correctly. We kept it up at McPhail's. Do you remember the McPhail's stable on Fourth Street?

CE: Well, we interviewed the grandson who now is head of the business and he was talking about his grandfather starting this livery stable.

AZ: Remember the great big tallyho he had, he used to rent out to the families? We used to rent that out and take - When my folks invited people to San Francisco, they would come on the train to San Rafael, and then they would take the big tallyho and ride out to Sleepy Hollow.

CE: Did you do a lot of entertaining out there?

AZ: Well it was mostly family. The family was so big. As I mentioned, my father had three brothers and they all were in San Francisco. None of them stayed here except my father. One of my uncles became a doctor in San Francisco.

CE: What was his name?

AZ: ydney Herzog. No, no. George Herzog. Sydney Herzog was with Foster, Kleiser. You know, the big advertising firm. In fact he helped start that.

CE: So there was this close tie with San Francisco and the family?

AZ: Yes, always.

CE: Were you friends with the Gerstles?

AZ: No, no. My father knew them. He used to deliver meat there.

CE: He did?

AZ: Yes.

CE: Their home in Gerstle Park?

AZ: In Gerstle Park.

CE: Well tell us about this meat business.

AZ: I don't know much about the meat business.

CE: Well you must have gone to his shop.

AZ: Oh, sure, I was down there. My happiest memories of going down there to the shop was the butchers there would give me a piece of frankfurter raw and I could eat it raw.

CE: Was it quite an establishment? Quite a good size establishment?

AZ: No, it was small. It was nothing but butcher. I mean in those days, it wasn't like today; you went in and there was nothing but meat.

CE: Did you deliver?

AZ: Oh yes. Oh sure. My father delivered on a - Not that I remember, but I've heard him say that he delivered.

CE: And your grandfather certainly did?

AZ: Oh, well he let his sons and other people do it. And that advertising you saw was with M. Blumenthal on it?

CE: Yes.

AZ: That was a cousin of my grandfather's niece. No, wait -

CE: It was an in-law of some sort.

AZ: It was my grandfather's cousin.

CE: What, did he get him in the business?

AZ: He came from Germany and he got him in the business, and then - I don't know if it's interesting or not. He also settled in San Rafael or she did, her name was --- Do you remember Barbara Blumenthal?

AK: Yes.

AZ: Well this is her husband and she raised seven children here. Do you remember Evelyn Levy was one of her daughters?

CE: Well, were they partners then?

AZ: At that time but not later. Not as I remember it. Then he raised four or five children and they settled in the area too.

CE: Tell me who did your grandfather supply meat to, and your father, like to the hotels around? And the old families?

AZ: Local people.

CE: How about, there was a little German community of sorts, they weren't all Italians in San Rafael or Irish -

AZ: There were mostly Italians from my memory.

CE: But how about Shutzen Park? Wasn't that run by Germans?

AZ: I don't remember that too well.

CE: How about Baron Von Schroeder, when they opened up the Hotel Rafael?

AZ: Oh, well I don't remember that but I remember the Hotel Rafael because that was there when I got married. That burned down shortly after; it burned down.

CE: Twenty-eight, or something like that?

AZ: Twenty-eight or twenty-nine. I was married in twenty-seven. I know it was after my marriage.

CE: You've seen a lot of changes haven't you?

AZ: Oh and how!

CE: In Marin County?

AZ: I certainly have, and I can't believe it. I ride along the freeways here and I think, "If my father were to come back now, he would never believe it." Really. You know, the freeways were built after the Golden Gate Bridge and before that we had the old road.

CE: And Petaluma Road was the only way in, wasn't it? Or the County, whatever you called that road.

AZ: The only way out was over the Corte Madera Grade down to Mill Valley. So that's all different.

CE: We interviewed George Tacchi the other day. Did you know him?

AZ: No, I didn't. I know the name.

CE: He was talking - His home is on Robert Stanley Dollar Drive, up there, and we were looking out his living room window, just sort of southeast, and he said that has all been built up since he was born.

AZ: Oh, yes.

CE: Do you remember the Menzies Family?

AZ: I remember the name. Wasn't Menzie a piano teacher?

CE: No, I think that's another family.

AK: Not that I know of.

CE: Do you remember any of the - You went later to a private school yourself. Did you ever know about Miss Stewart's School?

AZ: No I - Where was that?

CE: That was probably before your time. That was near where the present City Hall is, and near the San Rafael City Library.

AZ: That must have been before my time.

CE: How about Katherine Branson School. It started there?

AZ: Yes, I remember that.

CE: Do you remember the location of that?

AZ: Yes, right there in Ross.

CE: Well it was started earlier in San Rafael. I thought maybe you knew.

AZ: No, that part I don't remember. I remember when it was in Ross. In fact, when I was going to Hamlin's, we had tennis matches with Katherine Branson. Did you ever talk with Marian Moore, Guy Pollock's sister-in-law?

CE: Well, we haven't taped her. We should get both of those sisters, her sister, Jean Moore Pollock, too.

AZ: Her sister Marian was going to Katherine Branson and played against Hamlin's; not against me. I was a manager of the team. I played tennis but I was not on the team.

CE: Well we've tried, through Mrs. Kent's efforts, tried to interview as many of the old timers as we can. Do you remember the Foster -

AZ: I remember them, yes.

CE: Martha Foster Abbot. Did you know -

AZ: I don't know them personally, but I remember the family. I remember the home. That was all that space in back of the Gate House, down - All those spaces in back of it were empty in my day, in my childhood.

CE: You just drive up back there -

AZ: Yes, beautiful.

CE: As a young woman growing up did you get involved in the May Day affairs that the Kent Family -

AZ: Oh sure, when I was in grammar school I danced in the May Pole. I might have a picture someplace, if I have the patience to go through all the pictures I have.

CE: Well you know, photographs are wonderful, and you know that they make history come alive, and bring history into focus.

AZ: Well if I find it I will give it to you. That was in grammar school. I often think about that when I go down College Avenue.

CE: You think of that -

AZ: Yes, when I go past the school there.

CE: What were some of your early memories in your school days, as far as what would you do? Who were some of your pals?

AZ: I remember the Von Husen girls, they lived in San Rafael. They were very close friends, and - Her name was Scott, and she married Leonard Kopp, and she has passed away. I was very fond of her. We were very close friends in grammar school. We had a little club. I'm trying to think who else was in it. I don't know why; we called it the Poppy Club. There was Alarder, and Markee, and Anita Von Husen, and, oh, May Kopp, who became Mrs. Jack Hunt.

CE: Oh, yes.

AZ: Her son now married -

CE: Well, what was your home life? Try to give us a typical day as a young girl growing up in San Rafael. You had a large family. You had your grandparents living with you.

AZ: Well, to me, I can't tell you because -

CE: Well how did the day begin? Would you get up early?

AZ: Yes, get up and go to school.

CE: Did your mother prepare breakfast for everyone?

AZ: No, we had help in the house.

CE: You did have help.

AZ: Yes, with the two grandparents there. But everybody did something. It was co-operative. I mean, it wasn't that we were waited on completely.

CE: Was your mother very loving and giving to you children, all of you?

AZ: Yes, I think so.

CE: And you loved to go to school I presume?

AZ: I don't remember whether I loved to go, or - I took it matter of fact. It was a little difficult for me because of my hearing, and I had a lot of tutoring. See, I could only hear in one ear, and so it was a little difficult.

CE: You mentioned earlier that you went on to the University of California. Was that a unique thing for your family, to send a daughter, or they believed in much education?

AZ: No, they believed in education. I met my husband there. We both went, and then consequently my daughter went. My son went to San Francisco State. She met her husband there, and I met mine there. Now my grandchildren are there. It's become a tradition, almost.

CE: What class are you from U.C. Berkeley?

AZ: Twenty-seven.

CE: When you went to the University, did you stay over there? Live over there and come home weekends?

AZ: Yes, I belonged to a sorority over there.

CE: And came home weekends?

AZ: Some weekends. It all depended what was going on in Berkeley.

CE: Really, you had the best of both worlds didn't you?

AZ: I sure did.

CE: If you wanted to go to the city, you could be in San Francisco and take advantage of that. If you wanted to go on the dairy ranch and -

AZ: Well I'll tell you, that ranch was sold in twenty six, so I didn't have it after -

CE: But you had it all your formative years.

AZ: Yes, yes. Oh, I loved it.

CE: Did you ever know the Hotaling family? They had that lovely old house out there.

AZ: Yes, I knew the house and everything, but I did not personally know the family.

CE: What's left, just the stairs, Mrs. Kent? Did it burn down or what?

AK: A little of both.

AZ: It became a Country Club afterwards.

AK: They tried everything. Then the vandals began picking on it, and then the fire finished it off.

AZ: Now its San Domenico, isn't it?

AK: Not the house, not that beautiful house.

AZ: Is the house still there?

AK: No, no. There's hardly a piece left.

CE: And there's nothing left of this, is there Mrs. Kent? The building of the -

AK: No, no. There's nothing there because there are houses and roads there now.

AZ: In fact, I went out there not long ago and tried to find the campground, but I couldn't find it. I hope to get my brother to go with me some day. He might, because he lived there much more.

CE: Does your brother live in Marin?

AZ: No, he lives out on his ranch in Black Point, Lakeville Highway.

CE: And what does he call his ranch?

AZ: "Sleepy Hollow." When he moved it there it was still "Sleepy Hollow," but he no longer has certified milk. Now he and his son are raising prize Holstein cattle and they have people come from all over the world to buy them.

CE: He's raising stock.

AZ: Raising stock. And my nephew goes to Germany and Japan -

CE: Isn't that interesting.

AK: When you say the ranch was sold, you don't mean the dairy was sold. You mean the land the dairy was on.

AZ: Yes, that's right.

AK: Then I wondered, when you moved up to Black Point, they already owned that ranch?

AZ: No, no. They bought it when they had to move the dairy off of Sleepy Hollow in San Anselmo. Then my father bought the land to -

AK: I see.

CE: You call it Black Point, but if it's on the Lakeville Road isn't it on the way to Petaluma?

AZ: Well I think that's right, because you have to go along that cutoff to get there. It's the Lakeville Highway. You're right, I should say Lakeville Highway.

CE: I was just trying to get it straight.

AZ: Yes, it's Lakeville Highway.

CE: Well, there's been such a change in the dairy business anyway. We've interviewed ranchers out in West Marin who have turned to other things, haven't we, Mrs. Kent? You mentioned earlier your grandfather was the first mayor of San Rafael and that they decided to form a city government, but you just told me recently that your father, Siegfried, was the first elected mayor.

AZ: Yes, it was a difference. My grandfather was a member of the Board of Trustees, and they elected, the Trustees elected, but my father was elected by the voters. That's the difference.

CE: Well let me ask you this: are both your father and your grandfather interested in community affairs?

AZ: Definitely.

CE: Do you know of any other areas that they took part in? Your grandfather, for example?

AZ: I really don't know, to tell you the truth. Of course, by the time he came to live with us he, was older.

CE: Aileen Herzog Ziegler has brought a little typescript of genealogy of her family, The Herzog Family, compiled by Charlotte Lee in 1971, and it's such a worthwhile thing. I wonder if you would be good enough to read a few items from here, Aileen. It says here, for example, your grandfather Maximilian was a familiar figure as he rode down to meet the train in San Rafael each day in his later years, and he was nicknamed "The Duke." Did you ever hear him called that?

AZ: I've heard that yes.

CE: He was a meticulous dresser.

AZ: You can see that from that picture.

CE: He had seven brushes in a fitted case and wore a velvet smoking jacket for Sunday afternoon card parties. Now this next paragraph talks about the price of beef. I think it would be interesting if you would read that into the record, that paragraph.

AZ: "In January, 1884 the Marin chronology lists the price of roast beef at ten to twenty cents per pound. I can't believe it. Potatoes at one and a half per pound. Eggs at fifty cents a dozen."

CE: Continue reading into the record from that family history. I think some of it is most interesting.

AZ: "There was a stable on the Fifth Street side for Leona's pony and cart."

CE: Who's Leona?

AZ: Leona was my father's younger sister. Most of the information came through her. It's her daughter-in-law that wrote this up.

CE: I see. Now which house are we talking about?

AZ: This one.

CE: This one at number 828 Mission.

AZ: According to the Marin County Journal of June 18, 1885, Herzog was moving into his new house on Fourth Street, and as usual in such cases, finds he has a bigger job than he counted on. Funny how much the old households of furniture and odds and ends that are of no value, but cost a great deal, that you will not part with them. Another article states in June, 1885, Herzog moved to his new home. The land was part of the old orchard of the Mission.

CE: Well that's true, isn't it?

AZ: Yes, that's true.

CE: Now there's an error in there. Its Fifth Street, not Fourth.

AZ: No there isn't, dear, it's about my grandfather's house. This was not that house; it was before that house. They lived at one time on Fourth Street. If I remember correctly it was where the Masonic Building is today. They lived there before they went - They lived in several houses.

CE: Okay.

AZ: Then that was 1885.

CE: Yes, then what happened? On page three, here is a little further continued history of your family. Would you read those first three paragraphs about - Starting with Max retiring, your grandfather retired.

AZ: "Max retired at age 50 and his son Siegfried took over his butcher business."

CE: That's your father?

AZ: That's right. "The golden wedding of Augusta and Max was celebrated in 1920 at the Palace Hotel, where they entertained three hundred friends and relatives at a dinner and ball."

CE: Do you remember that occasion? You were eighteen.

AZ: Oh yes, I have a picture of -

CE: Did you go?

AZ: Oh of course. I have a picture of my mother and father and all four of us and all our party clothes. "And the following day, my grandparents left for Honolulu," after their golden wedding. "George Herzog, the son of Max and Augusta, graduated from Boy's High School, later Lowell)."

CE: Now that's your -

AZ: That's the one that became a doctor, my uncle.

CE: Siegfried's brother.

AZ: Brother, yes. "In San Francisco, he attended Cooper Medical School affiliated with Stanford."

CE: That's where Doctor Leo Stanley went.

AZ: Yes. I think he knew him.

CE: Sure.

AZ: "Affiliated with Stanford, graduating in 1901 as the youngest member of his class. The students in his class called themselves, "The Naughty Ones." In 1907 he went to Berlin for training in obstetrics at the Allgemeines Krankenhaus. Stanford University honored him in 1951 as one of two members of the Medical School with fifty years of practice. In the First World War, he joined the AEM and served from 1918 to 1919 in Vladivostok, Russia. Siegfried Kramer Herzog -

CE: That's your father?

AZ: My father, "Son of Max and Augusta, started the Marin County Ice Company and in 1906 leased a sixteen-hundred-acre dairy ranch in Sleepy Hollow, becoming the first local dairyman to market certified milk. In 1925 he moved his dairy to the site on the Petaluma River now operated by his son Max. That's on Lakeville Highway."

CE: And it's called?

AZ: Still called Sleepy Hollow Ranch. Ranch and dairy both.

CE: Would you interject in here what you told us when the tape was off about what they do now?

AZ: Now they raise prize Holstein cattle and they sell all over the world. They have buyers come from Germany and Japan to buy their prize cattle. It's just amazing to me, it truly is. "Besides operating the Herzog Meat Market, Siegfried decided real estate such as the Marin Hotel, Rafael Theater, and Oaks Theater in Berkeley. Was active in Reliance Acceptance, United Purchase and Supply, and Rosine Grocery. He was an original member of the San Rafael Volunteer Fire Department." Now what I think is interesting: "President of the Marin County Bank that was located in the 1920s in the Cheda Building. The Marin County Bank printed their own money, which was secured by bonds and used as currency. Notice the signature: S. K. Herzog. He was first elected mayor of San Rafael serving during World War I."

CE: Well that's most interesting, that they print their own currency. Did you ever see any of that Mrs. Kent?

AK: No.

AZ: There's a picture of it here. I didn't realize that either, that's how well I read it.

CE: My goodness.

AZ: That's 1920. That would - Oh, it's during World War I. No, it was over then.

AK: That's when I came here, 1919.

CE: There were lots of parades in those early days? Were you old enough to have participated in some of them?

AZ: We used to have a pony cart. I should have brought that picture. I must have it someplace.

CE: See if you can find it. What would you do? Pony cart?

AZ: We rode the pony cart in the parade. Mother had - I don't know where she got the pink flowers. She decorated the pony cart and the pony and all four of us rode in the parade in the pony cart. At least once, I don't know if we did any more. And then I remember even when we had cars, when we first had cars, decorating cars and riding in the parade.

CE: Well, Mrs. Kent and I interviewed a woman, a former teacher, Elinor Giloghly Murray.

AZ: I remember the name.

CE: And didn't she tell us she rode on horseback and led the parade?

AK: She led the parade on horseback one time.

AZ: My grandfather used to do that. I don't know if it mentions it here, but he did. We have a picture of him someplace. I don't know if I still have it, but I remember a picture of him on horseback on the old Court House grounds and he was served a citation because he shouldn't have had the horse on the lawn.

CE: Did you know the Jordan Martinelli family?

AZ: Oh sure, sure. I remember Jordan's sister Emma. I don't know what ever happened to her.

CE: How about his mother, and Albion House. Did you ever -

AZ: No, I don't remember his mother.

CE: Was Albion House going? B Street, somewhere like that? We'll look it up later. What about Louise Boyd?

AZ: No, I don't remember her too well except by reputation.

CE: You knew the property, of course?

AZ: Oh yes, I walked up the top of San Rafael Hill. When I was a child we used to walk up San Rafael, with the Edens, too, up the top of San Rafael Hill to the cross, pick poppies on the way up. Oh yes. The park, we used to play in the park all the time. It was really fun.

CE: The Gate House is now, of course, the home of the Marin County Historical Society.

AZ: I know. I keep meaning to go there and I haven't.

AK: Oh, you must.

CE: You must be a member.

AK: Oh I am a member of the Marin Historical Society but I haven't been to the Gate House.

CE: Well they have a lot of interesting memorabilia.

AZ: Tom Keating was in my classes at school.

CE: Oh, he was in your -

AZ: Class in elementary school. In fact I walked into him. I guess it was at the Historical Society meeting, activity, and I said, "I know you don't recognize me because it's so many years, but we were in the first grade together." When I told him my name he remembered.

CE: Well let's get to you now a little bit of your own life. You met your future husband at U.C. Berkeley.

AZ: Not really at U.C., but he went to U.C. He was already out, but I met him through friends.

CE: What was his interest? In business? Did he go into business?

AZ: Merchandising. He was a salesman. He came out to California because his brother came out here during World War I and met his wife and got married, and so he was going to the University of Minnesota he transferred out to the University of California because his older brother was out here. Then he went to work for his brother and that's when I met him.

CE: Where did you live then after your marriage? What year - You were married in 1927, did you say?

AZ: We married in twenty-seven. We lived in San Francisco about eight years and then we came back over here because he was traveling so much, and I was alone with my first child, baby, and being hard-of-hearing I was very nervous about hearing the baby cry and things like that. So I moved back with my family for several years before we bought our own home out on Santa Margarita Drive in Westland Park. We lived there I don't know how many years, until he died, and then I moved out here.

CE: Have you been a widow long?

AZ: Twenty years. So now I live in the Bon Air Apartments. I'm a neighbor of Ellen Stevens, same building as Ellen.

CE: Great. Give us the names of your children.

AZ: Barbara Ziegler Fernbacher and Harry Ziegler, Junior. And Barbara also met her husband at Cal, and he liked Marin County. He was from Los Angeles but he liked Northern California so much better. Then he settled up here too, after he did his bit in the service. They went to Turkey and they came back and they moved here to Greenbrae. They have four children, and three of them are going to Cal also. The other one went to U.C.L.A.

CE: Well now you've had the privilege of living and going to school briefly in each of the desirable areas in the Bay Area; you've had the Berkeley experience, you've had the San Francisco experience and you've had the Marin. Is Marin your favorite?

AZ: Of course. What a foolish question.

CE: Well, I'm always interested because there is this attitude amongst native San Rafael people particularly; there is no place like Marin.

AZ: Oh, I buy that. Even people who come here say the same thing. I have a very good friend who says, "Why should we go away? There's nothing." He came from Iowa and he thinks - Doctor Alex Miller. I don't know if you know him. He thinks there's no place like Marin in the whole world.

CE: Mrs. Kent is from the tippy end of Long Island, too, but - All right, tell us some of the things you did. You've gone to the Mountain Play, I presume, up on the mountain?

AZ: Not often. I've gone up there more to see my grandchildren graduate from Redwood High School.

CE: Have you gone on the holidays and picnics and outings to Bolinas, Stinson?

AZ: Oh, in my childhood I did that a lot. We went over in that tallyho from McPhail's in my early childhood days.

CE: Well tell us, give us a little account of that. How would you go? Do you remember the route at all?

AZ: Yes, over, up above the Meadow Club, over the ridge. I think that road's closed now. I really don't know if it's open or not. I'd love to try it some day again.

CE: Do you remember a place called Liberties where you'd stop?

AZ: On that road? You mean on the Ridge Road?

CE: That wasn't the Ridge Road, was it?

AK: It's gone. That was the road all right, but it was gone.

CE: By then?

AK: Yes. Before your time.

CE: Where would you stay in Bolinas?

AZ: There was an old hotel. I can't think of the name of it. It was right on the main street. Do you know what hotel I mean?

AK: Yes.

AZ: What was the name of it?

AK: It had several names.

CE: You're not talking about the one on the Lagoon, because that fell into the bay in the earthquake.

AZ: No, no this was on the main street.

CE: You mean downtown, near the Gibson House, or something like that? Was it the Gibson House?

AZ: They call that now I think.

CE: Somewhere in that area?

AZ: Yes, right near the Gibson House. There was a woman who ran it. We used to go over there for two or three weeks during the summer. It was old to me then, so I don't think - I don't think it could still be standing. Then later on when I was older, we rented houses from that - Was there a character called Holy Joe?

CE: Yes, Holy Joe.

AZ: We rented houses from him for two or three weeks on that street going to the beach.

CE: A lot of Marin families had places. Did you ever know the Dibblees?

AZ: I know the name but I didn't know them personally.

CE: The Peppers?

AZ: But I mainly remember the Newhall place right on the beach because their house was right on the beach. We used to sit on the wall by their house.

AK: It's still there.

CE: Elmer Newhall, that Dolly speaks of?

AK: Yes.

AZ: They had a lovely home in San Rafael also. I guess it's still there. Does the family own it anymore? I don't know.

CE: Do you have any recollections of the Dominican area?

AZ: Well, I just remember - The old building's still there. The old Dominican's still there. A couple of my cousins went there: the children, my father's sister. Oh yes, I knew people who went there.

CE: How about the old Freitas Ranch, now Terra Linda?

AZ: Oh, the Freitas were neighbors of ours.

CE: That's what I was thinking. Tell us a little bit about that.

AZ: We used to play on the street together.

CE: You would be a contemporary of what? Walter?

AZ: No, Carlos and Helen. Carlos I think was the same age I am. He just passed away six months ago. We used to play right on the street at night, you know, in the summertime. Kick the can. It was dirt streets in those days. But then after we grew up we drifted apart, and now when we see one another you'd think we were long lost friends.

CE: Did you ever visit the Home Ranch out there?

AZ: No, I don't remember going out to the ranch, but I remember where it was and the dairy cattle.

CE: Just think the changes you've seen. You go over that hill now and you see nothing but -

AZ: That's why I say when I go down the freeway, I think, "My God, if my father were to come back now he wouldn't believe it."

CE; I know you're old enough to utilize the trains and the ferry boats when you went to the city.

AZ: I wish they were here now.

CE: They told me initially that you could get to the city in an hour from San Rafael.

AZ: Maybe that's so, but it seemed longer to me.

CE: But they haven't really improved it, have they?

AZ: Yes, I think you're right, I think it was about an hour. But the thing was that by the time you got to the Ferry Building and you wanted to go anyplace, you had to get on a streetcar, and maybe it was another half an hour before you got anyplace.

CE: It was a nice way to commute though, wasn't it?

AZ: Never thought of it any other way.

CE: Well I mean compared with today?

AZ: Oh yes.

CE: If they had the trains today, would you - You'd go on them, wouldn't you?

AZ: I wish they had them. Even the little ferry boats that they have now are nothing like the great big ferry boats we used to go on. It was so roomy and comfortable. You could walk all around them. They had coffee shops on them.

CE: Would you go to the city often in your formative years, to take advantage of what was going on culturally?

AZ: Well not in my childhood, no.

CE: No, but in your teens or -

AZ: When I was in Berkeley, I went from Berkeley and got all the cultural experience. Of course I lived in San Francisco for four years, the most formative years really.

CE: That's right, yes.

AZ: Four years at Hamlin's. I got that there.

CE: What years were those at Hamlin's?

AZ: About 1919 - Four years would be 1923, 1919 to 1923.

CE: And Hamlin's then was on Pacific Avenue. Near where?

AZ: Between Webster - What is the next street? What is the next street before Webster, Laguna or Buchanan?

CE: Buchanan.

AZ: Buchanan I think, although my memory is not as good as I would like it to be.

CE: You know, the present site of Miss Hamlin's on Broadway has now been declared a historical landmark, it might interest you.

AZ: I think the one that I was in has been torn down by now. I should go see someday. I've driven down there. I remember the address: 2324 Pacific.

CE: Mrs. Kent has a friend who was there before your day even, and that's -

AZ: Is that a name I might know?

CE: Helen LaPlant, remember?

AK: Oh, Helen LaPlant, long before your time.

AZ: Well a lot of people were there before my time that I heard about. Lurline Roth was.

CE: Yes. In fact last year she was honored. I was at the alumni luncheon and she was honored there.

AZ: I never met her but I heard about her.

AK: She would be just a little younger than I, I think, just about my age.

AZ: Is she still in the Bay Area?

AK: Well yes, she's still in her same house.

CE: We should really talk to her.

AZ: I went down to her. Where did you say she is?

AK: It's in the city, in Pacifica.

AZ: In San Francisco. Because a few months ago I went down to their home and I was very interested, because I had heard all about her when I was in high school. You know, the different teachers and Miss Hamlin's sister, Katherine "Kate" Hamlin, would refer to things about -

CE: Yes. Well interestingly, Lila McKinney Stanwood, who became Mrs. Stanwood and took over the Hamlin School, was a teacher in the San Rafael High School and we have a photograph from 1904, Mrs. Kent, when she's the only teacher in the picture and there are eighty four students and Dolly Cushing Jenkins could identify most of them.

AZ: My sister was at Miss Hamlin's when Mrs. Stanwood was there.

CE: What was her name?

AZ: Leta Rosenbaum.

CE: Well, what else? Mrs. Kent, would you like to ask Aileen some questions?
AK: Let's see, I'd like to think of some things. We've heard about the skating rinks and things like that. Was it still there, or had finished when you came along?

CE: For amusement, do you know?

AZ: I kind of remember.

AK: I think it was on the way out, maybe, by that time.

AZ: I think there was one down off of Fourth Street. I wasn't allowed to skate.

AK: And there was swimming. There was a big swimming pool.

AZ: Oh, I remember the Baths. San Rafael Baths was down - It's about where you go over the, under the freeway.

CE: Yes, down there at the end of -

AZ: If you go down Second Street and you get on the freeway, it's sort of in there someplace.

AK: It's too bad they didn't keep it.

CE: Are you discouraged about the way the town is grown and has become so industrialized?

AZ: Not the town so much as the county. The county, maybe like out at Terra Linda, all that, yes, but not the central San Rafael. It can't have grown very much.

CE: Well I'm talking about, like, down by Shutzen Park and down towards the water there.

AK: As a little girl she would never have gone down there.

AZ: Well, what was it?

AK: Well it was far-out and wild.

AZ: It couldn't be as wild as it is today, what I hear today.
AK: It was on the road to the San Quentin Ferry.

AZ: Yes, I know about where it was.

AK: Apparently they called that road, not a bond road but you had to pay to go over.

CE: Toll road.

AK: A toll road and called that for a long, long time. Now it's beginning to be changed very much, right now. We still are looking for something. We would like to see a picture of the bus that used to go along, long before your time. There was a bus that went to the San Quentin Ferry when it was the only way to go to San Francisco. If you ever find such a thing?

CE: Do you mean a horse drawn bus, Anne?

AK: It must have been.

AZ: It must have been in those days.

AK: Well, I don't know what kind it was but -

AZ: Well, I'll ask my sister. She's the one that cleaned out the attic of my parents' home and took most of the stuff.

CE: And where does your sister live?

AZ: Country Club.
CE: Is that Leta?

AZ: Yes. She collected everything. The other day she gives me a box with my grandmother's wedding dress, and it's falling apart. And she had it in her house the whole time. I wish she'd clean her house out, but I wish she'd get out of it too.

CE: What year did you break up this big house?

AZ: My mother died in 1958, so it must have been '58 or nine.

CE: Twenty years ago - Bell Savings and Loan is that recent on this property.

AK: Well that dress - If you don't keep that dress, maybe Ellie Mazzini would like things. She has a bad time to keep -

AZ: Well it's not really Marin County history. My mother's side of the family didn't live here. They lived in San Francisco.

AK: And were married in San Francisco?

AZ: Possibly, probably it was in San Francisco.

AK: Well, you might let your grandchildren see it, then.

AZ: Well, that's why my sister gave it to me. She said, "Show it to your -" She wanted me to show it to my granddaughter. One of my granddaughters is in Africa in the Peace Corps.

AK: Well, that's what they'll do. Now, you should have told that too.

AZ: Well, I thought you were interested in the past.

CE: Well, we're interested in the past too, but history is ongoing, Aileen, and when you're not here anymore it's going to be most interesting for your children and grandchildren to hear your voice telling the story. I wish I had it. Mrs. Kent does.

AZ: Well, I'll tell you, I've been very nostalgic, as I told you a few minutes ago, the past week, because my first grandchild got married just this last Saturday and it did something to me. I don't know why.

CE: Getting back to this house on Fifth Avenue, are you in that photograph?

AZ: Yes.

CE: Which one are you?

AZ: Right there with my grandmother. Oh, by the way, those pear trees are supposed to be from the Mission, also. That's a pear tree we're hanging on.

CE: Well, which one are you, in here?

AZ: Oh no, down here by the tree. Here's my grandmother there, and, see, there's a tree there and that's a pear tree.

CE: From the original Mission?

AZ: Yes. It's supposed to be.

CE: And who is the man with the bowler hat?

AZ: That's Siegfried Herzog.

CE: That's your father. And where's your mother?

AZ: On the porch holding my brother, and the woman next to her was helping her take care of them.

CE: Do you remember any of the help? Were they Italians, Finns, Germans?

AZ: No, they were Germans. My grandparents used to go back to Germany and bring them out with them.

CE: That's very interesting.

AZ: And then they got married, and, you know -

CE: Did they speak German in the home?
AZ: My grandparents did yes.

CE: Did your children learn it?

CE: When I was very young yes, but not later.

CE: You could speak it at home.

AZ: I can't now.

CE: No, but you did. Same with my family. We had -

AK: Better go down to college. You could go down to college and brush up on it.

AZ: I think I took Spanish in college and Latin.

CE: Your grandfather is a fine-looking figure of a man.

AZ: I should have shown you the golden wedding picture. I didn't think of it.

CE: Would you object sometime if we made a copy of this photograph for the archives?

AZ: Not at all, as long as I get it back. I don't know if my brothers have that.
AK: It's a nice one.
CE: Well, we can go to your home and do it. We don't even have to borrow it. I'll just bring my camera and take a picture of it.

AZ: Someone else did borrow it from me. It was in the Marin Magazine, that Independent Journal, in the 1970s.
CE: Yes. It would also be nice to have a copy of this, also.

AZ: Oh, that's a postcard. Oh, I thought it was interesting. It doesn't say it there though. On this one, raised on Sleepy Hollow, raised by milk. See, we were raised on milk, and the deer was, the baby was. So, this is the original picture, and this was taken from it. My father used to send postcards all -

CE: That was quite something in those days. They always made postcards of some of these. I wonder if they still do that, Anne?
AZ: Oh, they probably do, but it's very expensive today.

AK: Probably. I know I wanted to ask about that Zoph Garden. It was a very special garden where people went, before your time, I think.

CE: Did you ever hear your family talk about that garden?

AZ: No, not that.

AK: It must have been German. It was a German garden and vineyard, and -

AZ: What date was that?

AK: Oh, it doesn't say.

CE: Its 1886, that issue of the Marin Journal.
AK: Yes, but they're putting in old stuff too, aren't they?

AZ: West End Station. That would have been the West End of San Rafael.

CE: Didn't Grosjeans take over that property? Do you remember Grosjeans?

AZ: Oh sure, you mean the grocery store? Oh sure.

CE: Where were they?

AZ: On Fourth Street between B and C, about where Minto and Wilkie are now, right in there.

AK: Yes, I was going to ask you that too. Along those stores, there was Chedas. Chedas big store wasn't there? Maybe Cheda took over Grosjeans?

AZ: They were the other way around maybe. I really don't know.

CE: No.

AZ: Chedas, I remember mainly about Chedas was the bag clothes.

CE: Did you ever know the Albert family and his store?

AZ: Oh sure, sure.

CE: Do you know his daughter, Alice Albert Martin?

AZ: Of course. The deer out there I just love to see them. The story I heard, and I don't know if it's true, and that's why I didn't want to tell it, that when Jerry Albert came to Marin County, he was a peddler with a pack on his back and he didn't have a license to peddle here in San Rafael.

AK: That's right.

CE: That's what she said.

AZ: So he was arrested for it, and my grandfather, Max Herzog, was supposedly the one who bailed him out.

CE: Well that's a wonderful story.

AZ: But I don't like to tell it because the Albert family doesn't tell it, so I don't want to do it.

AK: Well, she told it, she told it.

CE: Well, Albert Marcus told us that.

AZ: Oh, she did tell you that? It's Rose Albert that I'm closest to. I've known Alice all my life, of course, but they used to live on the corner of Fifth and B Street.

CE: Fifth and B?

AZ: Yes, that's about right near where - I can't think of it. The bog bank there on the corner, Savings and Loan, a little beyond the corner.

CE: Look at the changes you've seen. You've seen the residential area kind of erode and become semi-commercial, but are you pleased with how they're trying to upgrade the community a little bit, beautify it?

AZ: Well, I think it's a lot of waste of money myself.

CE: Okay. It's been a pleasure to talk with you this morning. Everyone we interview about San Rafael has another little variation of the story and can shed a little more light and of course your personal reminiscences of your family and that contribution is very helpful to us. We certainly appreciate your sharing with us today these wonderful reminiscences.

AZ: Well, it was a pleasure to talk with you.

CE: Thank you very much.