ORAL HISTORY PROJECT OF THE MARIN COUNTY FREE LIBRARY Anne T. Kent California Room Original recording available at the Anne T. Kent California Room © All materials copyright Marin County Free Library. Transcript made available for research purposes only. All rights are reserved to the Marin County Free Library. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the: Anne T. Kent California Room Marin County Free Library 3501 Civic Center Dr. #427 San Rafael, California, 94903

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INTERVIEW WITH ARTHUR GIDDINGS
by Carla Ehat & Anne Kent
October 11, 1977

INTERVIEWEE: Arthur Giddings (AG)
INTERVIEWERS: Carla Ehat (C.E.) and Anne Kent (A.K.)
DATE OF INTERVIEW: October 11, 1977
TRANSCRIBER: Marjorie Hoffman

CE: Today is Tuesday, October 11, l977, and we are at the residence of Mr. Arthur Giddings at number 93 Magnolia in Larkspur, California. We are here to interview him for the California Room at the Marin County Library, Civic Center. Mr. Giddings has been a railroad man, electrical engineer, contractor, and many things in his life and today he is going to share his experiences with us and we're very interested in learning about his years with the Northwestern Pacific Railroad. It's a pleasure to be here and good afternoon, Mr. Giddings.

AG: It's a pleasure to have you here.
CR: Now, I understand you have been in Marin County since 1917. That's remarkable. And you've been in this house since 1939.

AG: That's about it.

CE: All right. Where were you born, sir?

AG: San Francisco in 1903 and I was three years old when the big earthquake hit and my father and mother and myself and grandfather and grandmother. So I remember something of the earthquake even though I was only a child.

CE: What do you remember, just the -

AG: I remember the night, the evening of the same day of the quake, which hit real early in the morning. I remember my dad taking me across the street that evening and we watched the town burn. We were up on Buchanan Street between Herman and Waller, up in the hills. Well that - the State- was the State Teacher's College, which was built there later on, but there was nothing there, just a big open lot sloping down to market Street, so the view was unobstructed. And we could see the flash fires breaking out all over the city, you know. Then after the quake, why, it knocked out the water lines, power lines, streetcar lines and the whole thing and the whole time it didn't all start to burn at once, these fires came sporadically, following, one would break out here and somewhere else and whatever. Well, for a little fellow three years old, this was just a gorgeous sight. I didn't realize what was taking place down there. It was spectacular to me, but I remember it, it's a vivid picture. Another thing I remembered was that orders were given to dynamite the block we lived in. They were going to dynamite other parts of San Francisco because there was no water to fight the fire and it was the only way they could block its path, its advance, the advance of the fire, was to blow down sections of the town, which they did. Well, they found out later they didn't have to dynamite our block so we were in the clear but, well the doubt about that was prevalent. We were instructed to get out of that part of town, break out our houses and everybody in the block. My Dad was able to either rent or borrow a horse and wagon and he loaded my Mother and myself and himself and the lot and we went out to Golden Gate Park where there were thousands of other people who wanted to go out to Golden Gate Park. We set up a tent made out of bed sheets out there, and we stayed there for, oh I don't know, for a day or two I guess until they informed us that they were not going to dynamite the block we lived in and we could come back home. I remember the ride out there and coming back, riding in this wagon, that's about as much as I can remember and I can remember the flames and the fire and all that.

CE: But your home was not destroyed?

AG: No.

CE: Well, what precipitated your family’s moving over here? Was it the earthquake, do you think?

AG: I don’t know - my dad and mother loved San Francisco. San Francisco was a different town then what it is [inaudible]
Mrs. G: Well, your grandmother was sick and she had to come over here for her health – that’s what your mother said.

AG: That’s what my mother said. Well, my wife knows more about things like that than I do.

CE: All right, you came over here to Larkspur was it?

AG: Corte Madera.

CE: Corte Madera.

AG: Corte Madera was just a little country town –

CE: Where did you live then in Corte Madera? Do you remember the road?

AG: Oh, where did we live? The first house we lived in is still there and it's on the corner of - Do you know where the Arco, Richfield, Atlantic Richfield gas station is in Corte Madera?

CE: Yes, yes, yes.

AG: And the Town Hall is diagonally across the street? We lived right across the street from Town Hall in that corner house with the big tree and the -

CE: Oh yes. Wonderful.

AG: That was the first house we lived in. And it was just a dirt road going down to the bay there, by that house.

CE: And of course the railroad was up a block or two from you wasn't it?

AG: Oh, it was going full blast 24 hours around the clock, steam trains, electric trains, all day long and most of the night. You wouldn't believe it unless you could see it.

CE: Well let's, shall we talk about the trains or do you want to work up chronologically? You were schooled locally here?

AG: Well, I'm trying to help you out with a little history.

CE: Yes.

AG: My interest is not history at all, but I know you ladies are interested in it, so I'm doing the best I can.

CE: Fine. Well, let's talk about the railroads.

AG: Well, all right.

CE: How did you get a job there?

AG: My dad was a high-ranking official with the Standard Oil Company while he was out here. He was General Freight Agent for the Nickel Plate Fast Rate Railroad back east until he came out here and met my mother out here. That is - They were - later to become his wife and my mother. But they met out here; she was a member of the old Tivoli Opera Company. I don't know if you ever heard of that.

CE: I certainly have.

AG: Well, she was a member of it. Her stage name was Helen [Eastman?] Pickett, and Pickett was a famous old Southern name. Have you ever heard of General George Pickett?

CE: Yes.

AG: Pickett's Last Charge and all of that.

CE: Goodness.

AG: Well, I can't lay any claims or credit to any of that but I came into the world. So anyway, they came over here to Corte Madera -

CE: Were you -

AG: Oh, wait - here's the thing. For most of his years out here, my dad was pretty high up on the ladder financially and he had prestige, he was a high official with the old original Standard Oil Company. Not the present Standard Oil - what they sold then was fuel oil. And he was instrumental in selling thousands of barrels of fuel oil for Standard. They sent him into the old gold rush area, [Tolabon?] gold field, he saw the big gold strikes there; he sold thousands of barrels. In fact, he talked these mine owners into burning fuel oil instead of wood and coal; most of them were burning wood in their, in their - - what do you call them - crusher -

CE: Crusher -

AG: Ore crusher, you know.

CE: The stamp mills and -

AG: The stamp mills, that's right. Which were all steam powered, but they were burning mostly wood and coal, some coal. It was quite a project to talk these people into converting their grates and burners into burning - put an atomizer in there to burn oil instead of coal and wood, but he did. And he sold them, oh, I don't know many thousands of barrels.

CE: Well, were you - Did you become interested in electrical things and mechanical things as a youngster?

AG: I knew nothing about the electrical [inaudible].

CE: No. How did you drift into this?

AG: I was a green kid; I didn't know anything about anything. I was a spoiled brat. You take - The only son in the family, I was the only kid in the family and they spoiled me rotten. I had some wonderful parents, wonderful father and mother.

CE: But they spoiled you.

AG: Oh, yes. But it's a big let down when a kid like that has to get out to hit the grit for a living. You see, my dad's health finally failed and I didn't – because they had been giving me the impression that the world, sun, moon and stars were built for Arthur Giddings, you see, that's what some kids get when they're the only one in the family, you know. Not all of them, but I happen to be one. I'm not to blame for it, but-

CE: When your father died then that was a terrible shock to you, wasn't it?

AG: Well, finally even I began to see that Dad was starting to fold. He'd try to conceal it, you know, he had a lot of pride. He was a very proud man. I suddenly began to – well, I didn't suddenly, but eventually the light began to dawn on me that this thing wasn't right that I was getting three meals a day and a wonderful place to sleep, you know, and all this and that. So, to make a long story short, I had a couple of flings at various little jobs, then the opportunity came to go to work for the Northwestern Pacific Railroad in the Electrical Department, that was in 1921, that was - I was 18 years old. I went to work as an Electrician Linesmen’s helper in 1921 at the old Electric Shop at the Sausalito turn. That was down on the pier. Passenger trains, steam and electric met the ferryboats. Well, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was a tough go, believe me, because I went to work in a tough crew that was not about to spoil me or any other 18-year-old kid, you know. And I learned it the hard way and in a hurry. If some of these young people, young fellows today had to work under conditions that we worked under then, they'd have the union down their necks and everything else, you know, everybody’d be screaming bloody murder. I had a Line Foreman, I remember one time I had to learn to climb with a pair of pole climbers, and I was up on this 30-foot pole down at the south portal of Tunnel 1, that's this Corte Madera [shotman?] tunnel here -

CE: Yes.

AG: Well, we had trains going through there, one every 20 minutes, you know electric trains, steam trains, they had to wait their turn, we had an automatic block signal system.

CE: Yes.

AG: So I was just learning to climb poles then you know, without falling and breaking my neck, you know. I was up on top of this thing, tying a wire a telegraph line and the foreman he was a tough Swede and he saw me putting my safety strap around the pole for safety and he said, "Don't bother with it! That takes too much time, stick your leg through the cross iron brace and get out there and do it." Well. any line foreman on the PG&E, and eventually I worked for the PG&E, too -

CE: If they'd seen you do that -

AG: Why, he'd be doing time in San Quentin. He'd have every union, every boss in the world down on his neck. Pardon me for dropping into colloquialisms -

CE: But I think that's right. Well now, Arthur, for the people like ourselves who don't know too much about the railroad, or for myself, I understand the Northwestern Pacific Railroad was created when the Southern Pacific and Santa Fe pooled their resources in about 1907.

AG: I worked for it during that period, which was the most prosperous period in the history of the Northwestern Pacific when it was jointly operated by S. P. and the Santa Fe.

CE: And the railroad before that had been started as the narrow gauge and was the North Pacific Coast Railroad at one time and then it became the North Shore Railroad Company.

AG: That's right.

CE: Can you explain, you've got a map there, I notice -

AG: Well, this map here is for a specific purpose – it only - it isn't the kind of map - I probably could tell you more – Well, wait a minute here -

CE: But I'm curious now, when they started the railroad, of course they had it from Sausalito and they had it going up -

AG: Now this is a map of the inter-urban system.

CE: Yes.

AG: However, the steam train and electric train all ran on the same track.

CE: All right now first of all, back track a minute. The steam train was a narrow gauge, right?

AG: It started out as a narrow -

CE: As a narrow gauge. And then it went up from Sausalito and it went to -

AG: Well originally, on the North Pacific Coast it ran from Sausalito up and then crossed Richardson Bay on a long bridge and then generally followed around the contour of the range of hills in there and it went through the cut, which is now-what do they call it, the Alto Grade you know, over at Alto there's some stop lights down there and the highway goes up and it goes through a cut in the hills -

CE: Yes, and then wound up on the other side.

AG: Well, the railroad, partly - when it crossed here, over where Dr. -

CE: Lyford

AG: Lyford, you're pretty good.

CE: House was.

AG: Strawberry over that way.

CE: Yes.

AG: Then it followed up inland around the inside of the hills and it went through this cut I'm talking about and it hugged the inside of the Ranger hills on the west side of that cut right over and down into Corte Madera. Well, that proved to be a headache because it was a long, round about route, so eventually what happened was they shortened that by extending it along where you see it now, they built the Corte Madera tunnel and it went right through the hill, right straight through and hit the point where this round about route hit it at Corte Madera and cut all that out and did away with that.

CE: Well, going back just a moment historically, when Donohue had this Railroad that came down and went -

AG: Peter Donohue brought it into Tiburon in 1884.

CE: Okay. That was running for a while, was it not, in competition with this line that was coming up Sausalito - to

AG: Yes, you are right. You've been catching up on your history, haven't you?

CE: Well, I'm just trying to get some things clear. And then when NWP took this whole thing over, did this line down to Tiburon continue for passenger or freight?

AG: It was a freight line.

CE: Just freight only?

AG: They dropped the passengers around 19, roughly around 1911, in there and they transferred all the passenger service over to the Sausalito side.

CE: Okay, now that would take steam or electric?

AG: Both electric and steam. Now, all of this from Sausalito to Almonte Junction, which is you might say Mill Valley junction, was all double track. This was all double track right up to San Anselmo and it was double track from San Anselmo into San Rafael, it was double track between Baltimore Park Junction over to Detour, which is out on the Corte Madera marsh, double track right up on through here to San Rafael. The rest of it was all single track.

CE: All right, then I want to ask a question. When this Tiburon piece of the railroad went for freight only, how did commuters from San Rafael get to Sausalito? Was that why this Detour branch-

AG: Over the cut off, this was called the cut off, between Baltimore Park and Detour. Then the passenger service was just over this portion from here, see this is the steam line, from here is all single track up in here. No electric train ever ran north of my thumb, my little finger there.

CE: And where are you pointing at, San Rafael?

AG: This is San Rafael.

CE: Yes.

AG: This is, the red line is still in service.

CE: Yes.

AG: This is orange by the way; this is around the Larkspur, San Francisco Ferry that's now in operation.

CE: Yes.

AG: These are the old original ferry rotes into the ferry building here.

CE: Well, this cut off from Baltimore Canyon to Detour just below Greenbrae -

AG: Baltimore Park to Detour.

CE: Baltimore Park. That was a big assist, wasn't it?

AG: Well, it was, yes, and about 19, I'm not sure about this, l927 or ‘28, they built Baltimore Park booster station. A booster electric generating plant that went on and off the line automatically to keep the power factor up, that is to keep the power voltage on the third rail to supply the electric inter-urban trains up to normal. The operating voltage was around 550 volts direct current on that.

CE: You say that was a booster, where were some of the main stations, Sausalito?

AG: The main station was Alto.

CE: The main station was at Alto.

AG: It was a big, big station at Alto.

CE: What did it generate in the way of electrical power?

AG: Oh I forget how many kilowatts it was, but it was the biggest one of the bunch. I have all of the statistics on that but-

CE: Yes and then they would boost the signal up to -

AG: The little booster plant that was built during the late l920's at Baltimore Park is still standing; the building is still there, it's empty.

CE: It is.

AK: Near William St.

AG: That's right.

CE: .. When you say boosters, it's the same idea electronically as today when the TV cable people use the telephone company's line and they boost the signal from one area and - -

AG: Amplifiers. They have amplifiers along the pole lines at regular intervals. Well, a booster, the term booster, fundamentally means the same thing - yes, we're dealing in electronics and television, dealing in high frequencies. High frequency in electrical terminology has to do with the rapidity with which alternating current changes polarity so many times per second. The cycle is one flop over, that is, two wires change from negative to positive and vice versa, you see.

CE: Well, we can't get in to all of that, but you are very knowledgeable. But it gives it more power. Now how, I'd like to ask a naïve question, how did the Northwestern Pacific Railroad handle this complexity of narrow gauge, steam train, broad gauge, electrical stuff-

AG: There was nothing to it; they had three rails there.

CE: Yes.

AG: The broad gauge trains rode these rails.

CE: What is broad gauge, about 4 foot?

AG: A little over 5 feet.

CE: 5 feet, okay, and the narrow gauge is about 3, something like that.

AG: A little over 3 feet. Well anyway, the broad gauge trains rode these rails, the narrow gauge rode these two.

CE: The two inner ones.

AG: This was the common, this here.

CE: There was - Have you ever heard of a man named Fred Stindt?

AG: Oh yes, he's a friend of mine. I haven't seen him for years.

CE: He's a friend of yours. Well he-

AG: He came over here and had dinner with us one night.

CE: Well, he's written a book on the Northwestern Pacific Railroad, which I understand is going to be reprinted this year. Have you ever heard of that? It's out of print right now. But he also wrote a chapter in this old Marinwood Love, which is a bicentennial book put out by the Heritage Committee last year, and he said something here that intrigues me. He said, "It is remarkable to believe that with not only electric trains there were steam trains taking off to all points in the Redwood Empire and the headway out of Sausalito terminal was one minute by the signal system installed." One minute head time.

AG: That was close enough.

CE: "The passenger car availability was 95%. Compare this to 73 years later with BART. Their computerized, sophisticated system can only operate on a 6 minute headway with over 50% of the equipment down for repairs and still cannot manage to run on Saturday and Sunday."

AG: Well, the BART system, to begin with -

CE: That's quite remarkable.

AG: The BART system, to begin with, is kind of a pitiful thing, it -

CE: Well -

AG: In an earthquake belt, such as we live in, to entrust a mass passenger carrier with computers is about as crazy as you can get. Computers, sensitive relays, you can put them in the same category and anything that knocks them out of kilter you've got nothing but trouble, and the BART system has had enough trouble without earthquakes. They don't need earthquakes.

CE: That's true. Well, you stated earlier, and I don't mean to interrupt you, Arthur, but you stated earlier when you were living there in Corte Madera that those trains were coming by, did you say every twenty minutes? Both ways?

AG: What was it? That was approximation. Actually I've got some of the old timetables; I can give it to you accurately, but I've got to dig them out.

CE: And there would be steam and -

AG: Steam -

CE: Now the steam train would be -

AG: We had roughly, close to a hundred, over 130 trains a day in and out of the Sausalito terminal.

CE: 130 trains!

AG: In and out of the Sausalito terminal. That is trains coming in and going out, both steam and electric.

CE: Was the time you were in the business in the early 1920's, was the steam train mainly the narrow gauge bringing lumber down from Northern Marin and Sonoma Counties, would you say?

AG: Well, the narrow gauge train didn't run - the run of the narrow gauge was from Sausalito up to San Anselmo junction, west from San Anselmo junction; I can show you the whole thing. These are maps of various periods of the railroad.

CE: Yes.

AG: Now, the green line indicates branches that have been dropped, the red line indicates what’s still in service, as of now. This - The entirety of this is all gone. When I was with the company it was all working, as was this, this is the Sonoma branch.

CE: Well, that's what I thought, I thought the narrow gauge steam trains were still coming down from Cazadero, the Russian River area, Tomales Bay and all the way down, right?

AG: The narrow gauge came up through San Anselmo, over through White's Hill tunnel, on out through San Geronimo Valley on up to Point Reyes and right on through along the north shore of Tomales Bay, up Ocean Roar, Freestone, Camp Meeker, Valley Ford, and Occidental and then down the Russian River and up to Cazadero. That was the narrow gauge.

CE: Yes.

AG: Now, the other branch, which came in later, the main Russian River branch from Fulton, north of Santa Rosa, which followed the river right down to where it met the narrow gauge at Monte Rio, the broad gauge. Now, this here is broad gauge.

CE: From Santa Rosa down to Sonoma?

AG: From Sonoma, that's right. At present, that's all that's left, this here. And the main SP line coming in from the big SP system comes in this way, comes in to the end of Depeak by Schellville.

CE: Schellville, or course.

AG: That's right.

CE: Well, now say that you were residing in Kentfield where Mrs. Kent has lived -

AG: Both narrow and broad gauge.

CE: Were coming down there, huh? And you would – well, say you were, I don't know what exactly I'm reaching for, but say you wanted to go to San Francisco and you were down at Kentfield Station, did one have a choice whether to take the electric train or the narrow gauge, or was the narrow gauge more or less for freight?

AG: No, the steam train, oh I'd have to check the old time tables, but the steam train seldom stopped except at a very few stops.

CE: I see.

AG: The electric train handled all of that.

CE: And the electric trains were there since about 19 -

AG: 1903.

CE: 1903 wasn't it. The reason I'm asking, we've interviewed quite a few families in Ross Valley who have been there prior to the turn of the century and I was just trying to figure out what they would be riding.

AG: Well, of course as I say, not being an historian in any sense of the word but strictly a railroader who is interested in only one thing and that's the -

CE: Railroad itself.

AG: The railroad. I'm not possibly as much up on some of these historical facts as some of the people who'd never worked for the railroad.

CE: Never worked for the railroad.

AG: Who are older than I am. I'm 74, which is old enough.

CE: All right, well we'll just continue, then, with your experience. Now, when the third rail, the electric rail, was put on there, I understand there was a lot of initial resistance to that. They were fearful children would get electrocuted and what not.

AG: Well, it was installed before - well let's see, in l903, well, it was installed when I was born, the year I was born.

CE: Yes, so you had a whole generation of service out of that before you even got into it.

AG: Well, that's true.

CE: And they never had any trouble, did they? To your knowledge?

AG: Trouble, you say?

CE: Trouble - with danger, or people?

AG: Oh people, occasionally somebody would get burned up. There was some -

CE: What - Not much though.

AG: No, there was - What was that girl that was electrocuted?

AK: Deckoven girl.

AG: Tamalpais High School.

AK: Yes.

CE: Well, but it was a pretty safe and efficient operation.

AG: It was so safe by comparison that the tragedy, you'd have to refer to them as tragedies when they do happen, because a thing like that is tragic.

CE: Yes.

AG: I spent most of my life working with energized high voltage lines with voltages up to 110,000 with PG&E, I spent my life with it. But you can be killed on 110 volts quite easily, the lighting voltage in your house. You can be killed on voltages lower than that if you get it just right.

CE: All right, now let's get on with the, with your railroad experience. Now, I was presented with a copy of the letter you wrote September last year to the Urban Mass Transit Administration in San Francisco.

AG: Oh yes, I have some maps with it.

CE: And have some maps with it and you are proposing something which I think is very worthwhile. Could we discuss that?

AG: By all means.

CE: We got the new ferry going out of Larkpsur now, the two ferries-the Sonoma, the G.T. Sonoma and the G.D. Marin, gas driven ferries. We've got feeder buses that are bringing people to them. What is your idea, Arthur, what would you like to see happen down there?

AG: Well, what I would like to see is something that any railroader worth his salt could verify as being a possibility, a practical solution, it wouldn't be anything far out like the BART system, it's just as simple as driving a nail with a hammer, but it's hard to sell these young people of this generation on that idea. I should tell you this, that since I've been doing what I'm doing I know - I've never been accused of this to my face but I know it, that I am looked upon as an old fuddy-duddy that's kind of an eccentric that proposes things that are way out of line because these poor young people, they missed the boat, they haven't the faintest conception of what they can have. Since I quit railroading, and I did in l929 during the big depression-

CE: Yes.

AG: I followed other lines of endeavor, but I'm a railroader at heart and always will be because that's the way you are. In l965 when I saw the thing going down the drain, the railroads, the NWP folding as a passenger carrier, what was left of it. As a matter of fact it started to fold in l941.

CE: Yes

AG: I knew somebody was going to have to do something about this and they'd better get on the ball and collect evidence that could be presented in court if necessary, so I started taking pictures. Now, the pictures that I have taken, and I've taken over 3,000 of them, probably close to 4,000 snapshots, with a cheap old camera that I had, I couldn't afford anything better. You wouldn't be interested in these pictures because they are shots primarily of "right of way," the most important part. A lot of young people are probably fascinated by the ____ locomotive and I've worked on every electrical system, every steam locomotive the NWP had when I was with it, and there were 80 some large locomotives. But - the important thing is - that what would have to be brought back is the route, the route upon which these trains run.

CE: And that your 3 or 4,000 photographs are of these?

AG: Of the sections that have been abandoned.

CE: Given up, abandoned.

AG: Now - Speaking of these sections that have been abandoned.

CE: Yes.

AG: As I mentioned earlier when you ladies arrived, if you ever get a group together that really means business and they are interested in transportation, bringing this thing back, not strictly nostalgia or history, I'm talking about people that are being driven back up against the wall by the automobile and can see the handwriting on the wall ahead of them. That realize it won't be too long before gasoline is gonna be cut off or come to the point where they can't afford to buy the stuff. When these routes, which he have been, which we have permitted to be lost to us, are going to have to come back and there are no two ways about it and then they go to take a look and see, start looking for these routes and see what happened to them, I've got color slides. It takes a couple of hours to show, I've run to programs already on this. I've got the evidence to prove everything I say. The abandonment of these routes, and what abandonment means when we lose it and what

CE: It cost to re -

AG: And what is gonna be involved to bring it back when you have to declare eminent domain over routes. Just like they did when they put Highway 101 through, that's the way that was done. They just go to a property, “Well we're sorry but you'd better start making arrangements to vacate your premises here because we're gonna buy what you got and we're going to put a highway right through here.” Well, that's the way the railroads were done and it's a sad thing to look forward to, but it has to be the way -

CE: The only way.

AG: The way it will come back. And as I see it, it will have to be that way because we're facing this right now.

CE: Well, if I understand you correctly, Arthur, I thought initially your proposal to the Urban Mass Transit Administration was from the Larkpsur terminal -

AG: That's right.

CE: Bur you're talking now about re-activating the line of right-of-way down to Sausalito?

AG: Let me read this to you.

CE: All right, thank you.

AG: Maybe I've got it here. It's in one of these here. No this - This will clarify that. This is to Representative John L. Burton, Washington D. C. – “Dear Sir: -

CE: When did you write this letter, may I ask Arthur?

AG: October 5th.

CE: Okay.

AG: “Dear Sir, Please know that your kind letter to me of September 26th expressing interest in my ideas regarding the Northwestern Pacific Railroad is greatly appreciated. First, I'm acting as a private citizen with no other interest than that and with no possible chances for personal gain of any kind to myself. Also, at the age of 74, it is very unlikely that I'll be around to enjoy any fruits of my efforts that may develop from them. My only reason for doing what I'm doing is that, with over 50 years in the electrical field behind me, the latter portion in supervision of engineering, most of the first ten of those years were spent with the Northwestern Pacific Railroad during perhaps its busiest and most prosperous period, in l920. Because of that and a reasonable amount of familiarity with NWP's system, the type of mass passenger freight operation it was then and with a modern face lift the type of system it can be again, I'm convinced that I know whereof I speak. Will try to make the following material as brief as I can without skipping important details that should be presented. (1) Although I can't prove it, I'm convinced that the great potential value as a mass transit passenger carrier that still exists in Northwestern Pacific is purposely being withheld as much as possible from the public. It is my belief that the press is involved in that. (2) I have the impression that there are those who have found their way into some of our so-called Citizen's Mass Transit Committee, who discourage any favorable consideration of a return to rail passenger transit for reasons I can only surmise as having to do with the mistaken idea that such service might increase the north bay area's population to an extent that might not meet their approval. In other words, they are here enjoying the cake but they don't want others to do the same thing. The truth of the matter, however, is that the automobile, not the passenger train, has jammed our country solid, polluted our air, killed more of us by far, and backed our last frontiers right up against the wall, but these misguided people probably mean well. I'd prefer to believe that of them. I'm convinced, however, that the time has long since become overdo when such influences should have been overridden in order to save what's left of the really wonderful transportation system we once had on the NWP. (3) Probably the most outstanding examples of the great loss to us we've already experienced were our two deep water rail ferry transfer points, Tiburon and Sausalito, with their rail ties to the main line north and east of them. It's true that NWP (that's really SP now) abandoned both routes, but I'm convinced it would never have happened if the public, by its continuance of early patronage of the fine service that the railroad has afforded them for so many years had made that continuance well worthwhile to Northwestern Pacific, but the public had fallen in love with the automobile never anticipating the coming of the day when we'd all find we were cornered by it. So much for that. It's very likely that the best way to come to better appreciate the Tiburon and Sausalito terminals will be to study the copy of the USGS, that is the United States Geodetic Surveying map of the San Francisco Bay, and its environs included herewith. It has mean low tide depths shown upon it, certain ones which I have accented in black and encircled in red. It will be found at the low tide depth off the former railroad yards at Tiburon and is shown as being fifteen feet of water and the low tide depth off the Sausalito passenger terminal checks at fifteen feet and seventeen feet. Also that the depth of water throughout the entirety of NWP’s old ferry routes between both Tiburon and Sausalito and the Ferry Building in San Francisco were all deep, there were no shallows, no extensive dredging was needed. It will also be well to consider NWP's rail routes (identified in green here) running north from both Tiburon and Sausalito and meeting at Detour on the Corte Madera marsh just south of Greenbrae and the nearby new Larkspur Ferry Terminal and the thought that fast passenger trains moving over those routes would cover them in a fraction of the time it would take ferries to cover the same distance out on the bay. Considering all of those things, why was the Larkspur Greenbrae site situated in a mud flat area beside a narrow shallow channel (see the original depth of this channel shown on the above map) nearly two miles long and requiring dredging nearly all of that length, selected as a ferry terminal instead of restoring Tiburon and Sausalito and their rail feeder routes to active passenger service? Golden Gate Bridge Highway and Transportation District's buses could have met and then NWP's through trains on the site of the railroad's old original Greenbrae depot. There would have been no need for the tremendously costly ferry terminal at all. The Bridge District's new, fast ferry operating on the shorter runs, almost half of the present distance between Tiburon and Sausalito and San Francisco, would require far less maintenance and burn far less fuel. SP's fast diesel electric locomotives would cover the former ferry route’s equivalent distance on land in far less time and at far less cost. If ever there was food for thought I'm convinced that this fits that category very well. Worthy of thought is that both the Sausalito and Tiburon routes in their entirety can still be restored physically to active service and I'm almost certain that a great deal of litigation, the exercising the law of eminent domain and the working of hardships upon innocent people will be found to be necessary in order to do so. Those things have already come to pass to a great extent because of the unawareness on the part of a large percentage of the general public as to just what has been permitted to take place right under their very noses. Many of them still don't realize either the loss they've suffered or the wonderful thing they might have had. How could they? They're, for the greater part, a whole new generation of humanity, it's sad. Although, as already explained, I have nothing to win or lose from any of the above things I'd like to think that the things I've written here might possibly play a part in bringing into being a kind of mass transit system I know is at hand right now, only waiting for the shot in the arm it needs to start it, that can supply the answers so badly needed by not only North Bay travelers of today but also those of tomorrow for a long time yet to come. Another explanatory data will be found on the maps included herewith. I can only hope you'll find this material to be of some value to you. Thank you again for your interest. Sincerely, Art Giddings. (There's a P. S. under here.) I should have stated that the maps and written information upon them describe the type of mass transit system I have in mind. Restoration of the Tiburon and Sausalito routes in their entirety, however, would supply the only ultimate, long-range answer. The Larkspur site and its immediate access route are inadequate. Too small to accommodate the size of the water craft that would certainly and suddenly be needed to handle the total passenger load if the worst ever happened: loss of the Golden Gate Bridge in a major earthquake. The San Andreas Fault lies only six miles off the coast and parallel with it. I doubt very much if Southern Pacific Transportation Company has given up hope of acquiring permission from the ICC to abandon this Detour-Ignacio section. Those who stand to lose if that permission is ever granted will do very well to keep their powder dry meanwhile and to be ever on the alert. I feel that I've given another and perhaps even more important reason why that abandonment should never be permitted to take place, both for the traveling public's sake and for SP's sake. Regardless of SP's present feelings pertaining to rail passenger service the successful passenger operation even so could be mighty profitable for her.”

CE: What is the date of this letter again, sir? October 5, l977, I see. Now this other letter, earlier letter, of September 2, l976 was sent to the Urban Mass Transit Administration applies to the Larkspur Ferry Terminal, your solution for that.

AG: Could be done.

CE: But this one to Representative Burton is the larger concept of restoring back to the Tiburon Sausalito Terminal.

AG: Well ----------upon both of them really.

CE: Well, I think we should -

AG: I don't want to get these mixed up here.

CE: No. As long as this has happened, let's work with the situation as we have it. Right now we do have the terminal, we do have the shallow draft of a mile or two past San Quentin by these ferries and would you explain a little bit about generally how you feel this could be utilized by a train around there?

AG: Yes, sure.

CE: Would you explain that to us, Arthur? Now we still have the track between Detour and Ignacio, is that correct? That's still in existence?

AG: That's right, well, it's still in existence.

CE: Well, I mean it goes all the way up -

AG: It goes all the way to Eureka.

CE: All the way up.

AG: Let's take a look here t one of these maps that shows -

CE: And Detour, again, is just a little below Greenbrae?

AG: Well that's right, it's -

CE: Now the spur that serves Handicup and - Was that the Detour area?

AG: Yeah, just a moment here.

CE: Here's one map that has it.

AG: Yes. Isn't there a map of the inner-urban system over there?

CE: Probably in the back. Here.

AG: Here's Detour right here.

CE: Yes and it's just below Greenbrae, just south a little.

AG: Yes, let's go over here. This is a blown up view of that.

CE: All right.

AG: Here's San Quentin. Here's the right of the Ferry Terminal, right up into here it is, you see.

CE: Yes.

AG: Well, and then this is still in service all the way to Eureka. Well now we're coming to this other little map here, here's the one you just had. That's the one and there's another one right behind it, these two.

CE: All right. What do you propose they do?

AG: Well -

CE: Well, first of all may I -

AG: Here's the - I'll put a little X here, a little red X in here hike that.

CE: And where are we pointing to now?

AG: And then we'll put an X right in here because this is the Ferry Terminal proper.

CE: In Larkspur, all right.

AG: This is Wood Island over there. This is the existing Northwestern Pacific route.

CE: It sort of parallels 101 going north, roughly.

AG: Here I can - this will make it -

CE: You can talk it, that's all right, we can understand.

AG: Okay, this is the existing route - no this is out - this is the existing route from Handicup. So from this point here right on through, right on north to Eureka.

CE: That's it.

AG: Now, it's possible to make a tie between the existing NWP track right here and the Larkspur Ferry Terminal. Now, what I have done here, this circular loop is what I super-imposed on the map. This map, I didn't make the design this map-

CE: I see. You super-imposed your idea on this circular -

AG: I typed in this, this, this, this, this and this on that map, and I super-imposed this track loop because this would be the easiest and most practical. For instance a southbound train coming in from the north would take this switch, circle the terminal, and stop right here.

CE: Right in front of the ticket office.

AG: To begin, with it's important that this be visualized as being all overhead. Every bit of it like the New York El system.

CE: Why?

AG: Well, now the railroad grade, you see where you go over to Greenbrae you're going to find that the track, the level of the track, the grade of the track, is considerably higher than the rest of the terrain around here.

CE: That's right.

AG: In fact -

CE: Didn't they just rebuild that bridge?

AG: In fact Sir Francis Drake Boulevard goes underneath this trestle, it was just rebuilt, see?

CE: Oh, yes.

AG: Well, the entire grade is pretty much at that level all the way through. So is the long trestle going over Corte Madera Creek. So a train, then, coming in from the north would take this switch here, circle around over here and stop right on the bight, that is in this curve here. Now the train deck, the entire thing here being above Sir Francis Drake Boulevard, being above the ferry terminal, being above everything, the fuel tanks over here on the that supply the diesel fuel for the ferries, the whole thing, it would be up overhead, see? And then after this train had unloaded its passengers, which would use escalators, escalators from the ground floor up to the train deck, to take passengers up and down, don't you see?

CE: Yes. I see.

AG: So after unloading the - The train after unloading it's passengers and taking passengers from the ferries would continue on around this loop and right back out on the route it came through, don't you see? Automatic switching takes care of that. Now the only rough point about this is that since I worked this map over and introduced this loop here they have built an office complex up on top of this Wood Island, up in here, see? Now that still would not block that.

CE: You could go around it, couldn't you?

AG: Well, if you go, when you drive by in your car if you look over there you look at the south end of that island, that is right at the edge of the creek, the water, you'll see that there is a bare cliff there, you see, and that the buildings up there, the office buildings, are set back pretty well from that cliff. So there's still a possibility of following the original idea that I suggested -

CE: Not touching the buildings or anywhere.

AG: Not touching the buildings but to excavate a shelf, in other words, here's a sheer cliff -

CE: Yes. I know what you mean.

AG: Here's the -

CE: There's the island, Wood Island.

AG: Here's the water and the creek. See.

CE: Yes.

AG: And here's the sheer cliff here, comes up like this and then here's the office complex, up in here see with the roof on the building and anyway this is all office buildings up in here see, but this is the water in the creek. So you come up here and at about the same height as the railroad trestle over here, you excavate a shelf like this into that cliff.

CE: Right angles.

AG: And leave the tracks like this, in other words -

CE: Go right around it.

AG: Well, a train, the wheels would be off on the track, in other words the track would go this way along that cliff, you know what I mean.

CE: Yes

AG: And the trains would circle the island and go right around and continue on the same overhead level, above everything else, this entire portion in there is all overhead, it has to be. It's the only way it will work, you can't conceive anything on the ground level because it will foul up the traffic on Sir Francis Drake and interfere with everything else.

CE: Yes.

AG: But the New York El system has been in years, how many years of service, and other such systems all over the world. So we know it's a practical, time proven, way of operating a railroad. It's only that small portion that would be overhead, don't you see?

CE: Now, who do you envision, how far north would you envision a commuter utilizing this if this were okayed by the ICC.

AG: I would say commuters possibly not farther north than Healdsburg at the most. However, you must realize and remember that the Northwestern Pacific Railroad through all of its successful years as a combination passenger freight carrier was both operating on the same track all those years and it can be again. SP don't like to think of that, they don't like to talk about that. If you suggest in their presence that at one time it was a combination freight and passenger carrier they'd like to change the subject because they don't want the public to become aware of that fact.

CE: Are they afraid of subsidies?

AG: I'm an ex-railroader and I can see SP's side. I don't blame SP whatsoever.

CE: This would take government subsidy wouldn't it?

AG: The public deserted the railroad; the railroad did not desert the public. The railroad supplied the passengers with a wonderful transportation system, but the public went head-over-heels in love with the automobile and they deserted it like flies, you see, left the railroad holding the sack with perhaps billions of dollars of idle rolling stock. That is all the railroads all over the United States.

CE: Yes

AG: Now, the railroads are not gonna forget that. If they accept subsidies, automatically they leave themselves wide open to being -

CE: Controlled.

AG: Controlled by the - whoever supplies the money. But the case of desperation in which we now find ourselves is going to force that to a standstill, you see, it's going to have to happen. There's no two ways about it, and people should face up to it. Here I want to show you what has already been done here.

CE: Well, before you continue I want to ask you one question further. This wouldn't necessarily supersede the little feeder bus lines that are coming in from Fairfax and all these little places down to the ferry?

AG: Oh those?

CE: That would still continue?

AG: I wrote about that. I would think that those, most satisfactory handling of local transit like that would be to continue on like that.

CE: But this is for the long haul -

AG: This is for people that live, for instance, oh, even north of San Rafael, but that could be established. That could be thrashed out and get the opinion of everybody that's commuting and the travelers and the whole thing.

CE: Sure.

AG: To establish just what points would be patronized by the trains.

CE: Well, Arthur when you wrote this letter in September last year, did you get an answer that was satisfactory to you?

AG: I talked to the engineer to whom I sent that letter over the phone, and he told me he said, "You know, that's terrific," he said, "A copy of that should be sent to the Metropolitan Mass Transit," over in Berkeley, you know. I said, "I'll do it." He said, "You don't have to do it. I think so much of it I'll do it myself for you." So he - the trouble is with that outfit over there - I know doggone well that they've got a citizens’ committee over there, too, that comes over and attends those meetings and I can tell by the results that they've got people on that citizens’ committee that don't want - they're afraid of building up the population over here which is the worst mistake they can possibly make because it's the automobile that fouled this up in the first place.

CE: You would agree with that, wouldn't you Mrs. Kent?

AK: I sure would.

CE: Well, you were going to show me something there, Arthur.

AG: Oh, I never say anything. I'm not blowing my own horn but -

CE: No. What do we have here?

AG: I stick to the facts so in case I get cornered I can back it up.

CE: This looks like an old nautical chart used.

AG: Yes. It's a U. S. Government Geodetic Survey map.

CE: Yes.

AG: Now I've had to highlight some of the depth. All these are depth in feet, water. Now, this is the ferry route, the new ferry -

CE: The Larkspur Ferry.

AG: The Larkspur Ferry. It's pretty hard for you to tell, that's why I circled these.

CE: You mean, is this in feet or fathoms?

AG: Three feet, five feet, five feet, 1 foot, 3 foot, 6 foot, 5 foot, 4 feet, 3 feet of water in that channel up Corte Madera Creek which is the reason they had to go to this extensive dredging operation before they could get enough water in there for that ferry to move. There are over 13 miles, while the old ferry routes from Sausalito were only 6 6/10 miles and all on deep water. If you check right here at Tiburon you'll find that's 15 feet of water there and at Sausalito there's 17 and 15 feet, off Sausalito.

CE: Does this mean low water?

AG: There it is, soundings in feet mean low -

CE: Mean low water, okay. So these are minimum depths, yes. All right so you got in red here the present route -

AG: That's the approximate present route.

CE: And you have in green the two former routes, okay.

AG: My argument is this: Why in the world did they ever even give serious thought to putting a ferry terminal in these Corte Madera mud flats while all the time, while they had a chance to do it, they could have saved the day kept these two rail routes from Tiburon and Sausalito in service and then when the Golden Gate Bridge came in with its new ferries, run those ferries between San Francisco and these terminals and save wear and tear on the ferries, save maintenance, save fuel, and the trains instead of the ferries, particularly in foggy weather, a boat on the bay - -

CE: The trains make better time.

AG: Why, they fast [?], particularly on the old Tiburon route.

CE: Well, I notice you have got these tunnels marked, Tunnel 1 -

AG: Tunnel 2.

CE: And Tunnel 2 on the old Tiburon route and -

AG: And Tunnel 1 on this one. Now, the reason there's two Tunnel 1's is because back in the early days when this route was brought through by Donohue from up the San Rafael slough here -

CE: He had his own -

AG: This road was known as the San Francisco and North Pacific. This was the North Pacific Coast Railroad, two separate railroads, so it had its own Tunnel 1. Tunnel 2 on this road was White's Hill tunnel.

CE: I see.

AG: Tunnel 1 and Tunnel 2 on this route were as you can see on that.

CE: Are these tunnels still clear?

AG: No, Tunnel 1 is packed. Now, I've got the pictures, I rode the -

CE: Tunnel 1 of which route? The Corte Madera?

AG: This one here, about 140 feet of it is solid concrete and it started to cave in and that was done here about a year ago. And I've got the pictures of the barricades inside the tunnel.

CE: But could it be cleared?

AG: The way they would do that would be to by-pass it. In other words, here's this 140 feet of solid concrete -

CE: Just go right around it.

AG: You start from the mouth and excavate around it. You've got another bore right around it, put in a new bore and come right back in on the other side of it.

CE: How about tunnels 1,2, and 3 on the old Donohue line?

AG: Well, this one would have to be rebuilt, part of this would have to be rebuilt, this one's portals are blocked solid. If you went down there now looking for the tunnel you wouldn't find it because you wouldn't know where to look. I managed to squirm into that tunnel with a friend of mine and we hiked most of its length, using head lamps, and it was in A-one condition and most of it was dry and that was, oh, three years ago I think it was, and I dare say that there's a lot of water in it due to leakage. But that this tunnel generally is in pretty fair shape.

CE: How about tunnel 3 near Greenbrae?

AG: It's still in service.

CE: Still in service?

AG: It's the only double track tunnel on the railroad, this one right here. It's a wooden tunnel and requires some work.

CE: Yes.

AG: The other tunnels are all single track. But doesn't that strike you as being a funny thing they would ever give serious thought to this and all of their time -

CE: And all that money they spent for that terminal in Larkspur could have been in acquiring or re-acquiring rights-of-way.

AG: Here's another good question, how does little Harbor, what is it Harbor Ferries, those little outfits over there sailing between San Francisco and Tiburon, Harbor -

CE: Tours.

AG: Harbor Tours, it's a passenger outfit, something like the old Crowley launch, but it's a business. Now, we've been hearing countless reports of the breakdowns on this new super-duper ferry system over there, the jet powered high-speed craft -

CE: The gasoline turbine engines have been -

AG: We don't hear any trouble about the others that have just a standard diesel engine in them, you know. The SP operates its trains back and forth day in and day out down there south of San Francisco, we don't hear of any trouble really, and all the time the BART system is - well, the last reports I heard of BART was they were almost having to operate their trains manually because they started out on full computerized control. But SP, their trains don't get any publicity. They just keep continuing on back and forth, you know. You don't hear about those things, you don't read about them in the newspapers.

CE: In closing, what would you suggest the lay person do, write their congressman, as you have, their representative. How are we going to get something like this off the ground?

AG: Well, first of all is to get the layperson educated to actually believe in these things, to go out and inform themself or herself as you have. You two ladies are fantastic. What do you think of these two ladies, honey?

CE: We're trying to get somewhere.

AG: You know as much about the SP as President McNear does.

CE: No, we don't. Are you ever available to give a little talk to a small group, Arthur?

AG: It all depends; sometimes we've been having problems here. My wife is very fortunate to be alive here, what she's been through.

CE: Well, you're taking good care of her.

AG: I'm trying to.
Mrs. G: Well, I mean, he can go anytime he wants to.

AG: Well, that's what she says, but there's time when it's hard.

CE: Well, I think you speak with such knowledge and enthusiasm and such expertise that it seems you should share this with some people. We'll see what we can do about that.

AG: Well, I can't take - it's nice of you to say those things, but I shouldn't take credit on myself because what I've told you, any track foreman, even a section hand, could tell you what I've done. If he's worth his salt, if he's worked on a railroad any length of time, he could tell you any of these are factual. And they're simple; there's nothing outstanding in what I've told you, it's all so simple. In fact, any good mechanic could tell you the same thing.

AK: No, they can't. They might know it, but many people can't tell it.

CE: Well, thank you, Arthur, very much for letting us come and share with you today your vast reservoir of knowledge on this problem and you certainly fired us up. Mrs. Kent are you in agreement?

AK: Yes.

AG: Well, I hope I've made it interesting.